Thresholds working with wards

[Userisk]

One of my players wants to maintain a ward in his apartment (as all good wizards should) and we're both stumbling around a little in the dark. How might the (admittedly feeble) threshold affect his ward? The definition of a ward mentions the threshold a few times, and we get the impression in the books that an existing threshold enhances a ward. At the very least, YS states that a threshold defines the area (eg, a single ward wouldn't cover two distinct apartments without notably increasing the difficulty).

I currently see three possibly distinct interactions:

• The strengths of a ward and a threshold are additive (as opposed to sitting side-by-side).
• The threshold helps or hampers the creation of the ward.
• "Ward" can be substituted for "threshold" elsewhere in the book.

Is there anything definite for or against these points? Maybe we're just making it more complicated than it is.

[CMEast]

As far as I see it. Ward and threshold is usually treated as the same thing, however you can use a ward to bolster an existing threshold as in your example. I don't think they literally combine together as the threshold would dissipate the ward quickly if it crossed it, however if you place the ward inside the threshold then the two effectively stack. A threshold of 2 and a ward of 2 will add up to an effective threshold of 4.

Others may see it another way, but that's how it seems to me.

[luminos]

Thresholds and wards have different effects.  Both effects will be in operation if you have a ward up, but the effects don't give each other bonuses.  Also, Word of Jim is that you can't put a Ward up unless its on a threshold, so that might effect how you do things.  Maybe non-threshold wards don't last very long.

[CMEast]

Well they won't give each other bonuses, but if one provides a block strength of 4 and the other provides a block strength of 8 then the total will effectively be 12. Bear in mind that they are still separate for the purposes of attack the ward.

It does say on page 277 that they are almost always tied to a threshold, but it does say that without a threshold it can only cover a very small area at most. Bear in mind that a magic circle is effectively a threshold, but only for magic.

[Tsunami]

[...] Bear in mind that a magic circle is effectively a threshold, but only for magic.

Thresholds are always only for magic.
We have yet to encounter a mundane being that is hindered by thresholds... *g*

[Userisk]

So, undisputed remains the size of the ward being restricted to the threshold. As a brain-teaser, does a +0 threshold (from any public building) count as legal base for a ward?

I'd like to refine the idea so that thresholds and wards stack for blocks. (Otherwise two attacks would be needed, and that's seems like something we want to avoid anyway.) I'm cool with the necessity/capability of attacking thresholds and wards seperately. Would it be too much to presume that they work together (stacking) as suppressors or sources of harm?

Actually, after re-reading the descriptions, that question answers itself for me. They should "stack".

[CMEast]

Good point, I'd forgotten about that. So the ward wouldn't see any benefit from the original threshold unless it was blocking magic, whereas a ward CAN block non-magic too.

Hmm, so scrap what I said earlier, I didn't understand it properly. Thanks forum *blushes* So let's see if I've got this.

So the threshold just stops magic, and hurts or weakens any magical creature/construct/effect that crosses the threshold without being invited. Any spell or mindless magical creature that tries to cross may be instantly dissipated if the threshold is high enough.

A ward can be (and almost always is) placed with a threshold. It can prevents anything crossing, whether it is physical or magical and it automatically targets everything unless specifically cast with added complexity.

A magical creature/construct/effect will be blocked by both the threshold AND the ward at the same time and I don't think one would replace the other so I would personally combine that block in to one MEGA block (it'll probably be just a couple more shifts). However they wouldn't combine in any other way I imagine.

Make sense?

I can't see why a +0 threshold wouldn't be usable for a ward, it's still there.

[Nomad]

I might be wrong but I would say that a +0 treshold would be a "just moved in" bachelor place. A Public place would be a -0 (or -1) as no one actually calls that place home. (A side thought, a well run, good public shelter could be a +0 or +1 treshold despite being public)

[CMEast]

Public buildings like English Pubs, Libraries (old, well-loved ones), Greasy Spoon cafes (with regulars) and old book shops may have a threshold of -0 depending on the circumstances. Anything where a few people have been there for a long time, anywhere with a lot of history and personality, might have a -0 threshold.

What about castles? They might have been homes for hundreds of years before being turned in to tourist attractions. Might they still have a threshold? Or could the threshold have developed in to a full genius loci?

[Mindflayer94]

I think public places should be able to have a ward, for example-the Council base in Edinburgh, although public (or at least semi-public), iot has wards on it placed by The Merlin. 

[Userisk]

I might be wrong but I would say that a +0 treshold would be a "just moved in" bachelor place. A Public place would be a -0 (or -1) as no one actually calls that place home. (A side thought, a well run, good public shelter could be a +0 or +1 treshold despite being public)

The idea of a negative threshold disturbs me. If I apply this to the rules and consider the role of a threshold "as a suppressor", a magical being would actually gain strength! Maybe you want just want to imply that there is so little threshold, a ward would find no foundation? (Which was actually one reason why I asked if +0 meant anything in the first place.)

Public buildings like English Pubs, Libraries (old, well-loved ones), Greasy Spoon cafes (with regulars) and old book shops may have a threshold of -0 depending on the circumstances. Anything where a few people have been there for a long time, anywhere with a lot of history and personality, might have a -0 threshold.

Is there a typo here? Because it seems to be an argument for a +1 threshold, which appeals to me. These are definitely special places and "normal" public places have +0 threshold anyway.

Oh, and why do you differentiate between -0 and +0? I know fate point costs consistently use -0, but using it anywhere else doesn't make (mathematical) sense to me.

[CMEast]

Yeah it was a typing error. I'd fix it but then your post will look odd

So yeah I was thinking of +1. I put -0 instead of just 0 because it felt weird without a plus or minus in front of it. I appreciate that mathematically there is no difference between the two but I prefer the cup half empty to half full

[Userisk]

Yeah it was a typing error. I'd fix it but then your post will look odd

Quotes are forever

I've gotta say thanks for the input, we've really clear some things up (at least to my satisfaction )

[Rel Fexive]

I don't know about the Word Of Jim, but Your Story says wards are "almost always tied to a particular place’s natural thresholds" and that without a threshold they can "only be set up to cover a small area at most — usually a point of transition such as a doorway or intersection".

They certainly can't be tied only to thresholds - how would the Merlin have set a ward to hold off a Red Court army otherwise?  So what kind of "point of transition" can you ward without a threshold - a doorway? an archway? a valley entrance? a ford? a portal to the Nevernever?

[Nomad]

Of course there isn't negative tresholds (maybe a desecrated and linked to underworld place, an unholy shrine in other words, might have such a thing.)

Userisk, what I meant with +0 / -0 business was what harry was talking about in WN. The hotel was an open public place so there wasn't "any" usable threshold to build a ward upon, ie an effective score of N/A (Not usable).
Compare this to a new bachelor home / frat boy sorority house , Sure the place is barely better than a hotel and it has an effective value of 0 but there "is" a treshold that you can build your spell wards upon it.

I would argue that Edinburg has at least such a usable treshold to build upon.