Modified Skills and Supernatural Power

[ahunting]

So on YS pages 213-214 we see a discussion of terms concerning combining skills, and the ramifications.
I'm wanting to check on what all that means. For somethings this seems pretty clear.
Under Strength abilities one of the trappings is something similar to the Superior Strength trapping.
In effect which will basically add +1 to any attack you can make strength an important factor in.
(Which seems like common sense for the purposes of Weapon and Fist attacks.)
Now from that logic, it seems like for the purposes of game balance you should be able to use speed
to add to Guns. But I don't really have a sound rules quote to stand on there.
I have considered the argument of using strength with guns, from the position you could resist recoil better,
and their for be more accurate, but I'm not sure that would fly.  (All of that is kinda off topic but it is relevant in some ways.)

From their we move away from "Modify" and into complementary. Complementary appears in the Righteousness supernatural power. It appears often in the skill trappings, and its defined on page 214. However my question on this is what does "could only add to the primary skill" actually mean in practice? 213 seems to suggest that if the skill is higher it just adds +1. It was suggested as an alternative interpretation that it straight add the skill to the other skill, another interpretation i have seen is that it adds the deference between the two skills as a bonus.

What do you all think? Is the whole discussion crazy?

[Deadmanwalking]

As a rule, having Might higher than your Fists or Weapons DOES NOT give +1 on most attacks, thus neither does Inhuman Strength. It gives the bonus to a very specific category of actions in very specific circumstances. The Complementing skill rules are for doing two things at once or other complicated things, not for justifying getting bonuses to a particular skill all the time, that would most certainly be noted were it the case. As it IS oted in Righteousness (it explicitly adds to EVERYTHING), but very much not in Inhuman Strength.

So, basically, your premise is faulty.

[ahunting]

So we have two distinct issues I'm mainly interested in.

On the first one, your interpretation of the Superior Strength trapping is that it does not add in anyway to making Weapon of Fist Attack? So in effect your saying being Inhuman, Supernaturally or Mythically strong will in no way make it easier for you to connect a blow? Thus basically making the 3rd Strength trapping in effect useless? Thus also invalidating the Exerting Force trapping of the Might skill? Really?

Next as you agree on Righteousness, it does explicitly add to everything. What value is added?
The more I read it the more sure I am about the discussion on page 213, that it will straight add +1 if conviction is greater then the other skill in question. Do you agree with that point, or can you find another value to apply there?

[Deadmanwalking]

So we have two district issue I'm mainly interested in.

On the first one, your interpretation of the Superior Strength trapping is that it does not add in anyway to making Weapon of Fist Attack? So in effect your saying being Inhuman, Supernaturally or Mythically strong will in no way make it easier for you to connect a blow? Thus basically making the 3rd Strength trapping in effect useless? Thus also invalidating the Exerting Force trapping of the Might skill? Really?

Uh, basically. Yeah. And I'm hardly alone. No other skill has that kind of blanket power to modify, and even all the examples in Exerting Force are the kind of very specific edge cases I'm talking about. The developers have said as much themselves, too. It hardly makes Might useless (or even less useful than other skills), and the Inhuman Strength powers are still some of the most badass in the game, so I fail to see the problem.

Next as you agree on Righteousness, it does explicitly add to everything. What value is added?
The more I read it the more sure I am about the discussion on page 213, that it will straight add +1 if conviction is greater then the other skill in question. Do you agree with that point, or can you find another value to apply there?

No, that's entirely correct. And awesome. Adding +1 to nearly all your skills is a hell of a cool ability.

[ahunting]

Uh, basically. Yeah. And I'm hardly alone. No other skill has that kind of blanket power to modify, and even all the examples in Exerting Force are the kind of very specific edge cases I'm talking about. The developers have said as much themselves, too. It hardly makes Might useless (or even less useful than other skills), and the Inhuman Strength powers are still some of the most badass in the game, so I fail to see the problem.

Can you give me a source on where the developers have said such things? If thats the case I can't agree on strength being among the most Badass powers in the game, without giving a static bonus to connecting they just adding damage. If thats the case then most super strong critters should be built primarily to grapple.  The other method leads to more interesting varied builds. Your way puts Strength's effectiveness behind, Speed, Toughness, Stunts, and Items of power. Hitting is alway better then hitting hard.

No, that's entirely correct. And awesome. Adding +1 to nearly all your skills is a hell of a cool ability.

Ok so spend a fate point and get a +1 to any skill with a rating below your conviction for one Exchange. Good to know.

[Deadmanwalking]

Can you give me a source on where the developers have said such things? If thats the case I can't agree on strength being among the most Badass powers in the game, without giving a static bonus to connecting they just adding damage. If thats the case then most super strong critters should be built primarily to grapple.  The other method leads to more interesting varied builds. Your way puts Strength's effectiveness behind, Speed, Toughness, Stunts, and Items of power. Hitting is alway better then hitting hard.

It really doesn't. Sure, damage isn't as good as attacking, but you get +2 damage, while someone with Speed only gets +1 to dodge, and someone with Toughness only gets a single point of Armor.

And this was months ago, man. I'll try and dig it up, though.

Ok so spend a fate point and get a +1 to any skill with a rating below your conviction for one Exchange. Good to know.

Uh, no. You get +1 to everything you do with skills below your Conviction until your chosen purpose is complete. Even if that takes years. Re-read the power and what it does.

[ahunting]

It really doesn't. Sure, damage isn't as good as attacking, but you get +2 damage, while someone with Speed only gets +1 to dodge, and someone with Toughness only gets a single point of Armor.

2 to 1 damage to hit effect isn't close to even. 1 armor and +2 consequences out races that considerably, +1 to dodge vastly out distances it given its potential to wipe out the total effect, never mind the mobility advantage in a system that lacks any kind of real zone control. Depending on the value of refresh within a given power level 4 to 1 is about right at the low end, and 3 to 1 at the higher end. The nature of the system leads to Average being so constant, anything that shifts that value on the table is far more important then damage potential, if additional shift didn't add i would give it to ya. The nature of Offense winning ties helps a little but not that much. Given the average number of combats (Low), length of combat (Not Long), Its almost certainly better to hold 2 fate points then try for a static +2 to damage. Unless of course you plan on grappling as your favorite attack method, then its not bad.

And this was months ago, man. I'll try and dig it up, though.

I appreciate it. Cause if that the case it makes it much easier to assign relative values.

Uh, no. You get +1 to everything you do with skills below your Conviction until your chosen purpose is complete. Even if that takes years. Re-read the power and what it does.

Eh, its better then i thought, I'll give it that. Still not impressed, desperate hour does help some.

[Deadmanwalking]

+2 Consequences? It's +2 Stress Boxes, which is probably coler, actually, but in my experience no match for Inhuman Strength long-term. And bear in mind that Inhuman Strength has numerous out-of-combat uses (lifting being the most obvious) as well as it's effectiveness with Grapples. Probably more than Inhuman Speed (which is indeed really cool, but does nothing at all for your offense, and has limited utility out of combat), and certainly more than Inhuman Toughness (no use at all outside combat). Try running a combat or two between two people armed with swords, one with Inhuman Strength, the other with Inhuman Speed and everything else even. You'll see how nasty Inhuman Strength is pretty rapidly.

I'm looking, but I haven't found it yet. I will say, that re-reading p. 214 certainly doesn't give the impression that this sort of thing is intended to usually be a general thing, nor does p. 183 expand it's applicablity for Might, it just means it'll always add, not subtract, not even if you have Mediocre Might.

It's a fairly awesome ability if you already have Conviction as a pinnacle skill and some FP to throw around. Not so much if those two things aren't true.

[Deadmanwalking]

You know what? I just realized there's proof right in the books I'm right on Might not usually adding to attacks.

Look under, say, the Ghoul entry in OW p. 59. They possess Great Athletics and Fists, and both Inhuman Srength and Speed. In the notes section at the bottom, they're listed as having "Great attack, Superb defense". That's true of ever entry with such notes (and there are quite a few). The defense bonus from Inhuman Speed is listed, no such bonus is listed on attack from Inhuman Strength, and were such a thing universal, it would be.

[Belial666]

Inhuman Speed gives bonuses to: mobility (in and out of combat), active defense, all other uses of athletics, initiative and a relatively minor bonus to strealth.

Inhuman Strength gives bonuses to: damage, lifting, breaking, grapples and mobility (wall? what wall?).

Inhuman Toughness gives bonuses to: armor, physical stress track. However, it is almost always half as cheap as the others, even with a very minor catch.

[JosephKell]

2 to 1 damage to hit effect isn't close to even. 1 armor and +2 consequences out races that considerably, +1 to dodge vastly out distances it given its potential to wipe out the total effect, never mind the mobility advantage in a system that lacks any kind of real zone control. Depending on the value of refresh within a given power level 4 to 1 is about right at the low end, and 3 to 1 at the higher end. The nature of the system leads to Average being so constant, anything that shifts that value on the table is far more important then damage potential, if additional shift didn't add i would give it to ya. The nature of Offense winning ties helps a little but not that much. Given the average number of combats (Low), length of combat (Not Long), Its almost certainly better to hold 2 fate points then try for a static +2 to damage. Unless of course you plan on grappling as your favorite attack method, then its not bad.

1.  Strength powers stack for damage.  Weapon:2 ~= 2 fewer attacks needed to drop a target.  The reason it is fewer attacks is because you effectively ignore lower boxes (unless the target takes a consequence, in which case you tag that consequence for a free +2 and possibly ignore their lower boxes--like the one they took a consequence to avoid).

1b.  Grab a sledge hammer and you are looking at Weapon:5 (Weapon:3 for a two-handed weapon and +2 for inhuman strength), you don't even need effect to force a consequence or take out on a mortal.

2.  Those things with strength can throw cars at you.

3.  +1 Athletics for dodging isn't all that hot.  Especially since mortals can take a stunt to use their attack skill for the physical defense trapping.  Inhuman Speed doesn't transfer its +1 Athletics to another skill if you move the trapping.

3b.  My attitude to Speed is that I only saw it on an NPC.  Since NPCs have less (or no) fate points, +1 doesn't help that much when the players can just try to robo-cop the guy.

4.  Toughness doesn't give consequences (Recovery lets you use a supplemental action to get back a mild though), but it does give more stress boxes.  But stress boxes tend to act more as "It takes +1 attack to get me per extra box I have."  So going from 4 to 6 boxes is about 50% better.  But toughness can be ignored by the catch.

5.  Armor, while great, doesn't stack.  So if you have Toughness armor and Kevlar, only one applies.

6.  I mentioned above, but it bears repeating: Strength powers stack with your weapons/claws.

[ahunting]

1.  Strength powers stack for damage.  Weapon:2 ~= 2 fewer attacks needed to drop a target.  The reason it is fewer attacks is because you effectively ignore lower boxes (unless the target takes a consequence, in which case you tag that consequence for a free +2 and possibly ignore their lower boxes--like the one they took a consequence to avoid).

Agreed. The drop out theory is good, generally very nice for stomping out unimportant baddies. But when you do that out, and you release you will only hit 1/4 as often you need really high effect. I'm just saying in the cost benefit, your probably better off having two points of fate, then static +2.

1b.  Grab a sledge hammer and you are looking at Weapon:5 (Weapon:3 for a two-handed weapon and +2 for inhuman strength), you don't even need effect to force a consequence or take out on a mortal.

Yeah but it doesn't matter if you swing a weapon 10 if ya can't hit'em.

2.  Those things with strength can throw cars at you.

Agreed. And a Car is very hard to dodge or parry. Thus why i think it should be bonus to hit to be really strong. I mean just think, with inhuman strength you could easily swing a desk or some other large object. There really isn't a way to parry such a thing, but if you take what has been said as rules as written then it has no effect. 

3.  +1 Athletics for dodging isn't all that hot.  Especially since mortals can take a stunt to use their attack skill for the physical defense trapping.  Inhuman Speed doesn't transfer its +1 Athletics to another skill if you move the trapping.

That becomes a question of Maximum possible bonus. If you can push static defense to 2 above its basically all over but the shouting, unless something is carrying a whole lot of fate, or has friends.  Creative spell casting can overcome. (Aspect creation spell, Super high block all's). If your taking Speed powers, and decided to  defend with your fist then you weren't really paying attention. If your saying you decide to take the stunt that changes the defense dodge trapping to fists and that power doesn't carry over that just sucks. Doesn't change my point ether way.

3b.  My attitude to Speed is that I only saw it on an NPC.  Since NPCs have less (or no) fate points, +1 doesn't help that much when the players can just try to robo-cop the guy.

NPCs are always going to be as challenging as your DM has determined they are. In this system your likelihood of getting killed is really a measure of your devotion to your goal and thats really cool honestly. Concession is a wonderful system. So its not the end of the world if your GM makes something to strong. But believe me something thats got Speed bonus vs. Something that is at the logical Cap for attack is at a huge advantage. (Its not as noticeable at inhuman, but Supernatural and Mythic. As its basically clear that Max is 5 (6 with a stunt), the critter that needs a 7 to hit, or heaven forbid an 8 better be ready to make some aspect and spend fate, cause the bell curve does not love you. (Magic doesn't suffer this as much. Sense you can just be like I need 10 discipline roll anyways, but do you really want magic to be that off the hook better then a fellow PC who has spent refresh into being unspeakably strong?)

 4 Toughness doesn't give consequences (Recovery lets you use a supplemental action to get back a mild though), but it does give more stress boxes.  But stress boxes tend to act more as "It takes +1 attack to get me per extra box I have."  So going from 4 to 6 boxes is about 50% better.  But toughness can be ignored by the catch.

Stress is really good no way around it. 2 extra boxes of stress at the top end, way better then +2 damage given that those two boxes are worth 5 and 6 stress, if you is at least endurance 3.  It pure physical at least.

 
5.  Armor, while great, doesn't stack.  So if you have Toughness armor and Kevlar, only one applies.

So the only armor that stacks is the stunt natural armor vs fists? But yes Armor is clearly way better the +2 damage. The enchanting system stands as proof of that.

 
6.  I mentioned above, but it bears repeating: Strength powers stack with your weapons/claws.

Yup. Good times, I hope your building stealth to take advantage of that refresh choice.

[Deadmanwalking]

Agreed. The drop out theory is good, generally very nice for stomping out unimportant baddies. But when you do that out, and you release you will only hit 1/4 as often you need really high effect. I'm just saying in the cost benefit, your probably better off having two points of fate, then static +2.

Not 90% of the time you aren't. If you're fighting something with Defense 2 or more greater than your Offense, AND you don't have very many Fate Points aside from these two maybe you're right.

That's kinda specific though. When fighting people with Defense roughly equal (which includes one point higher) to or lower than your Offense (ie: a lot of the time), Inhuman Strength is clearly superior to two FP. And even when fighting someone with Defense of 7 to your 5, if you've got three or four Fate Points (or Tags, from either Navel Gazing Aspects or your friends), Inhuman Strength is STILL better (since it's an FP equivalent on every hit you make, and with three FP, you'll likely hit three times).

Yeah but it doesn't matter if you swing a weapon 10 if ya can't hit'em.

True, but there are lots of ways to hit. Even if you only hit half as often as an opponent, (about how it is if their Defense is one higher than your Offense and your Offense is equal to their Defense), you can still win if their attacks do little enough to you comparatively.

Agreed. And a Car is very hard to dodge or parry. Thus why i think it should be bonus to hit to be really strong. I mean just think, with inhuman strength you could easily swing a desk or some other large object. There really isn't a way to parry such a thing, but if you take what has been said as rules as written then it has no effect.  

Uh...you can't parry thrown weapons, and you should be able to dodge a thrown car. A car wielded as a melee weapon, well, that's a corner case on parrying, but disallowing it seems reasonable. You can still totally dodge out of the way, though.

That becomes a question of Maximum possible bonus. If you can push static defense to 2 above its basically all over but the shouting, unless something is carrying a whole lot of fate, or has friends.  Creative spell casting can overcome. (Aspect creation spell, Super high block all's).

You ignore the possibilities of Fate Points, Navel Gazing Aspects, and Maneuvers targetting other skills. All of which can really shift this kind of fight.

If your taking Speed powers, and decided to  defend with your fist then you weren't really paying attention. If your saying you decide to take the stunt that changes the defense dodge trapping to fists and that power doesn't carry over that just sucks. Doesn't change my point ether way.

It is a downside of Inhuman Speed, though.

NPCs are always going to be as challenging as your DM has determined they are. In this system your likelihood of getting killed is really a measure of your devotion to your goal and thats really cool honestly. Concession is a wonderful system. So its not the end of the world if your GM makes something to strong. But believe me something thats got Speed bonus vs. Something that is at the logical Cap for attack is at a huge advantage. (Its not as noticeable at inhuman, but Supernatural and Mythic. As its basically clear that Max is 5 (6 with a stunt), the critter that needs a 7 to hit, or heaven forbid an 8 better be ready to make some aspect and spend fate, cause the bell curve does not love you. (Magic doesn't suffer this as much. Sense you can just be like I need 10 discipline roll anyways, but do you really want magic to be that off the hook better then a fellow PC who has spent refresh into being unspeakably strong?)

Yeah, someone with Mythic Speed is a bitch and a half to hit. And someone with Mythic Strength will kill you in a hit or two, and someone with Mythic Toughness is effectively unkillable. And? Mythic stuff shouldn't be coming up that much, it's explicitly not reccomended for PCs and comes up all of five times (and two of those are Recovery, the least directly scary) in OW (Uber-Ghouls, Outsiders, Sue, Magog, and Tessa). It's supposed to be that badass.

Stress is really good no way around it. 2 extra boxes of stress at the top end, way better then +2 damage given that those two boxes are worth 5 and 6 stress, if you is at least endurance 3.  It pure physical at least.

They're very nice, but they tend not to last long vs. Inhuman Strength.

So the only armor that stacks is the stunt natural armor vs fists? But yes Armor is clearly way better the +2 damage. The enchanting system stands as proof of that.

No, it really doesn't. Free high-shift blocks are better than bonus damage, but that's hardly the same thing.

Yup. Good times, I hope your building stealth to take advantage of that refresh choice.

Speaking as someone who currently has two PCs with Inhuman Strength, I disagree vehemently. Have you actually tried this out (or even worked out the actual probabilities), or are you just complaining in a vaccuum here?

EDIT: Edited for phrasing.

[GruffAndTumble]

Completely on board with DMW here. Navel-gazing manuevers and/or passed tags from teammates make hitting extremely easy with a little set up, and with somehing as simple as Inhuman Strength, a Baseball Bat, and a single shift of a effect, you're forcing any mortal and many kinds of supernaturals (like, say, Wizards) to take a consequence, or be Taken out. Then, once they've taken the consequence, as mentioned, TAG IT. Which helps you hit again, and force another instant consequence.

Furthermore, Strength is not solely used as a damage booster, even including indirect methods like Weapon: 5 huge honking cars. --Grappling for high stress hits with a bonus to control said grapple with cause serious problems for just about any opponent.
--Being able to force your way around a booby trapped door by plowing through the wall is an example of a very handy non-combat use.
--Might is quite capable of modifying skills other than direct physical attacks--Intimidation via thugpower, Athletics for climbing attempts like pulling oneself out of a pit, or even something like a Performance test to impress someone with feats of strength.

[ahunting]

Not 90% of the time you aren't. If you're fighting something with Defense 2 or more greater than your
Offense, AND you don't have very many Fate Points aside from these two maybe you're right.

If you have more then 2 combats in a game maybe. But our games averages 2 combats, and tend to not last beyond 3 rounds in any given combat.  Maybe your game is very different from that standard I don't know.

That's kinda specific though. When fighting people with Defense roughly equal (which includes one point higher) to or lower than your Offense (ie: a lot of the time), Inhuman Strength is clearly superior to two FP. And even when fighting someone with Defense of 7 to your 5, if you've got three or four Fate Points (or Tags, from either Navel Gazing Aspects or your friends), Inhuman Strength is STILL better (since it's an FP equivalent on every hit you make, and with three FP, you'll likely hit three times).

That depends on your refresh total also Navel gazing takes time and actions. Which you may not have.

True, but there are lots of ways to hit. Even if you only hit half as often as an opponent, (about how it is if their Defense is one higher than your Offense and your Offense is equal to their Defense), you can still win if their attacks do little enough to you comparatively.

This not really true, ambush, and straight attack are the ways to hit. But on that line of thought all other things being equal if you hit  1/4 as often and not 4 times as hard your going to lose.

Uh...you can't parry thrown weapons, and you should be able to dodge a thrown car. A car wielded as a melee weapon, well, that's a corner case on parrying, but disallowing it seems reasonable. You can still totally dodge out of the way, though.

So your saying exerting force make sense for using large objects? Also the fact that a car is way way bigger then a sword makes no difference? I also disagree that its impossible to parry thrown weapons, ever used a shield?

You ignore the possibilities of Fate Points, Navel Gazing Aspects, and Maneuvers targetting other skills. All of which can really shift this kind of fight.

I don't ignore them. But what you can spend your enemy can spend as well, also it not uncommon to be out of fate, or to be fighting something that doesn't have positive refresh. Often it is better not to give the big bad points to use against you.

Yeah, someone with Mythic Speed is a bitch and a half to hit. And someone with Mythic Strength will kill you in a hit or two, and someone with Mythic Toughness is effectively unkillable. And? Mythic stuff shouldn't be coming up that much, it's explicitly not reccomended for PCs and comes up all of five times (and two of those are Recovery, the least directly scary) in OW (Uber-Ghouls, Outsiders, Sue, Magog, and Tessa). It's supposed to be that badass.

With that interpretation I'd rather fight someone with Mythic strength then the other two options every day and twice on sunday, and I'd still rather fight the other two Mythic guys then a decent mage. Sure Mr.Mythic could deal something like 9 or 10 Weapon But if he cant swing for more then 6 its not tough to insure he will never connect.

No, it really doesn't. Free high-shift blocks are better than bonus damage, but that's hardly the same thing.

They have assigned relative values to those in enchanting system. Its not perfect, but it is an easy way to think about relative values, in how the system values them at least.

Bullshit. Speaking as someone who currently has two PCs with Inhuman Strength, pure bullshit. Have you actually tried this out (or even worked out the actual probabilities), or are you just bitching in a vaccuum here?

I believe foul language is against the user agreement, I am personally not offended, but this is a public board, so please refrain.

Yes I have played with it, I have a white court Vampire, built to serve as a tank for the party, he also uses an item of power sword with true aim, and a max Athletics plus speed to be very hard to hit. I also have a Warden built, weapon primary with the High Concept "Sword of the Wardens", let me tell you right now My Warden would win every single fight between the two and the warden isn't built to max efficiency. We have played under the method i have put forward here for about 2 months, and found it works pretty well. Spellcasting is still MUCH Stronger then Stat power sets. But with +1 hit it at least insures your casters don't want to get anywhere near something that fast, strong and tough. But believe me if casters can sit there and defend against strong critters on an even footing nothing in supernatural world stands a chance.

When my group starts a new system we alway test it by making the min/maxiest things we can think of, see what it looks like, see what beats that, then one more layer to see what beat that. Thus we figure out what actually work, and then settle down to make real characters. We have done this for maybe 8 or 9 systems, it usually works. We are rarely surprised by things as a result. It really helps GMing to know what the worst thing you can put on board, and what level of challenge you can expect.

We determined a 12 shift throwing focused Practitioner is probably about the strongest thing starting, outside superlatives, and lawbreaker builds. Superlative effects are always hard to account for numerically as they invalidate normal modeling and lawbreaker ignoring the pyramid, also is very problematic mathematically, but it is a good refresh value standard. You can get close to that top spellcaster power level under our interpretation of the stat builds but its still not AS good. After doing the math generically the best thing you can do is start combat have someone do a heavy aspect adders spell, have the next guy throw a super block, and then punch out just about anything in this system, if you have a sword of the cross this gets really easy. PI and Mythic Rec can overcome, but the people most likely to discover Catches and create catch satisfiers are those with access to thaum. (See my statement about superlatives earlier).

What is the downside to accepting this concept? Suddenly mortals with might 5 can add +1 if their fists or weapons if those skills are below 5? Is it really causing a huge imbalance to make Super Strong critters better at hitting? The fact is both of those things are false, you can use trapping shifts to make someone who grapples and does function exactly as I'm putting forward, this way just allows for more varied and interesting variety of builds and more realistic thugs. Why are you fighting this? Just out of reflex or does it actually seem like a major balance issue to you?