Evocation, Stress, and Upping the Ante

[Ophidimancer]

So you always take Stress when you use Evocation.  More, if you summon more power than your Conviction.  This technically means that there's no incentive to cast lower power spells, the more spells you cast in a scene.

For example:

Exchange 1)
Harry tries to conserve energy and only summons his Conviction in power.  He takes 1 point of Stress.
Exchange 2)
Harry needs to cast another spell.  If he tries to stay safe again and only summon his Conviction in shifts, he will only take 1 Stress, but that hit will roll up to the second box because there's already a point of Stress in the first box, so he has no reason not to summon a spell with his Conviction + 1 shifts of power.

This keeps raising the ante on evocations in a scene.  Do you think this was intentional?  It does raise the tension rather nicely.

The only reason I would see not deliberately outstripping your Conviction is the possibility of taking the stress as backlash for a failed Control roll.  It's fair to say that the summoning of power and the control roll are the same action and thus the stress from either all counts as one hit, right?

[GruffAndTumble]

I'm inclined to count Backlash and overcasting as separate hits, given they play separate roles in the system, but other than that, you seem to be spot on. Overcasting is your friend.

[Deadmanwalking]

Well, contrariwise, if the situation is just that bad you can just do a Conviction+3 attack right off the bat, fill up your fourth Stress Box, and then proceed with lower powered hits from there on.

Overcasting is in fact your friend, but what order you do it in is immaterial from a balance perspective.

[Fedifensor]

So you always take Stress when you use Evocation.  More, if you summon more power than your Conviction.  This technically means that there's no incentive to cast lower power spells, the more spells you cast in a scene.

I like the option (suggested on these boards) of using spin to negate the initial point of stress from spellcasting.  We see Harry do trivial spells that don't seem to take any significant effort to cast.  People will be less likely to push spells if they have the chance of getting spin and taking no stress from the spell.

[ahunting]

I do believe it was intentional. What I question is why example wizards are built Conviction over Discipline, I find the mental stress argument to be believable, but if you follow the stress progression it makes way more sense to just go for control. We have discussed this before but it seems odd.

[Ophidimancer]

I'm inclined to count Backlash and overcasting as separate hits

Ouch, isn't that just a little harsh?  I mean, I want my spellcasters to actually, you know, cast magic.

Well, contrariwise, if the situation is just that bad you can just do a Conviction+3 attack right off the bat, fill up your fourth Stress Box, and then proceed with lower powered hits from there on.

True, the only danger is filling your last slot and then getting hit by some stress and taking Consequences or getting Taken Out.

I like the option (suggested on these boards) of using spin to negate the initial point of stress from spellcasting.  We see Harry do trivial spells that don't seem to take any significant effort to cast.  People will be less likely to push spells if they have the chance of getting spin and taking no stress from the spell.

That's an interesting houserule, but I'd consider it carefully before implementing.  Harry may cast some minor spells without any seeming effort, but that could just be the fact that it was an otherwise stressless scene and the stress went away at the end.

I do believe it was intentional. What I question is why example wizards are built Conviction over Discipline, I find the mental stress argument to be believable, but if you follow the stress progression it makes way more sense to just go for control. We have discussed this before but it seems odd.

Because you take a point of stress for each point of difference between your Conviction and the power of your spell, on top of the automatic point of Stress you get for Evocation.

[JosephKell]

I do believe it was intentional. What I question is why example wizards are built Conviction over Discipline, I find the mental stress argument to be believable, but if you follow the stress progression it makes way more sense to just go for control. We have discussed this before but it seems odd.

Because you can invoke aspects for Discipline rolls, not for how much you can "convict" up.  Also, Conviction gives more mental stress boxes (up to 4) and then gives extra mental consequences.

Shift stress and backlash stress are separate hits.  There is no real reason to keep upping the ante after a while anyway.  Once you are looking at Weapon:5, things start to look like rocket tag.  Especially when you start invoking.  "Oh look, I just rolled a Superb Discipline, I think I'll invoke my wizard high concept, this aspect about burning stuff down, my hostile aspect, and tag the scene aspect about this being an flammable situation.  So Legendary+5 (+13) and Weapon 5."

With enough effect anything is taken out.

[Ophidimancer]

Shift stress and backlash stress are separate hits.

You sure about that?

[JosephKell]

You sure about that?

Yes.

YS 249 (Evocation step by step).

Step 3.  Decide how many shifts of power you want to put into the spell.  Take 1 mental stress, plus 1 for each point of power greater than your Conviction modified by any power bonuses from a focus item.

Step 4.  Roll Discipline to cast the spell, plus any control bonus from a focus item. The difficulty is equal to the power of the spell. This roll is also used for targeting if you’re aiming it at a target. If you do not meet or beat the difficulty to control, the margin of failure turns into shifts of backlash (bad things happening to you) or fallout (bad things happening to everything else).

"Shift Stress" happens when you decide your shifts (step 3).  Backlash/Fallout occur after the Discipline check (end of step 4).

[Ophidimancer]

"Shift Stress" happens when you decide your shifts (step 3).  Backlash/Fallout occur after the Discipline check (end of step 4).

I was going to say, "Yes, but are you sure all the steps together don't count as one action?" but then I noticed that summoning power causes mental stress and backlash can cause mental or physical stress, so that's pretty good evidence that they're separate.

[Wyrdrune]

We see Harry do trivial spells that don't seem to take any significant effort to cast.

As I see it: Stress is only important where it counts - in conflicts. Why should I tell my players to mark off one stress for a "Light the candle" evocation when there is no conflict waiting to happen in the rest of the scene/night?

[Tsunami]

As I see it: Stress is only important where it counts - in conflicts. Why should I tell my players to mark off one stress for a "Light the candle" evocation when there is no conflict waiting to happen in the rest of the scene/night?

Which is covered by the "Mundane Effects" rule. YS:259

[ahunting]

Because you can invoke aspects for Discipline rolls, not for how much you can "convict" up.  Also, Conviction gives more mental stress boxes (up to 4) and then gives extra mental consequences.

That doesn't really address my point. I did agree that the stress argument was valid but it doesn't effect the point of this thread. Given the increasing stress value of each box, it makes more sense to just over channel and to worry less about having to make the roll.

Shift stress and backlash stress are separate hits.  There is no real reason to keep upping the ante after a while anyway.  Once you are looking at Weapon:5, things start to look like rocket tag.  Especially when you start invoking.  "Oh look, I just rolled a Superb Discipline, I think I'll invoke my wizard high concept, this aspect about burning stuff down, my hostile aspect, and tag the scene aspect about this being an flammable situation.  So Legendary+5 (+13) and Weapon 5."
With enough effect anything is taken out.

I agree on the backlash vs over-channel, it is clear on that. And if you have the fate to tag all that stuff fantastic. But most PC wizards aren't packing big fate pools. It way safer to start with high control, Weapon 3 or weapon 6 if ya can't hit him it doesn't matter. And if you can hit better its just as good as packing a bigger weapon value.

Honestly when you talk about throwing the big bomb vs the precise shot, the controlled violence is almost always more effective. So the question stands, why layout a build method that seems to be counter intuitive? Really what I am asking is am I missing something?

[Nomad]

Because magic is not a bullet analog.  
Don't imagine a soldier firing a weapon, Try to imagine  a fire hydrant with the firefighter trying to control the hose. You need to have it just barely within your control if you want to stop the fire before it burns down the building.  Too little pressure and ity won't be enough, too much and it will go out of control



And now a House Rule of mine, For Evocation, look up the Discipline or Conviction score of the character. Take the lower one and subtract 1 or 2. Consider this big shift magics don't have a real effect on player and move on. (Don't allow most of the aspects on these spells. These are low powered cantrips after all)

For example Azmi the Scholar has 4 Discipline and 3 Conviction. I just assume that unless there are conflicting aspects (Azmi being winded, limited magic etc) he can use bare 2 shift magics as much as he likes. Conversely if they are in a magic rich zone (Azmi's sanctum, on top of a ley line, a magical well) then he can use 3 shift spells without trouble thanks to ambient magic. Since he isn't just going by the minimal work for these spells, most scene and personal tags (beyond core aspect and trouble) won't be usable for his "quick" spells.

[Belial666]

The problem with allowing this is that if you have a wizard with discipline 5, conviction 5, +1 control specialization and +4 control focus - which can easily be the case as wizards are already chest-deep or submerged - allowing them power 3 spells for free still means they are doing weapons 3 attack at +10 control, nearly twice what anyone else will be doing.