Norse Mythology and the Nevernever

[theDwarf]

I see a number of related posts about various elements of Norse Mythology:
Dwarves / Dvergar
Frost Giants
Fire Giants
Norse Trolls (Trow?)

and so on.

Given how posts get lost, and because I am thinking about a character along these lines, I figure I start a thread on the subject.

Right now I am a bit pressed for time, but will come back with a few notes in a bit.
Hopefully others will comment as well.   

[theDwarf]

First thing to realize is that in Norse Mythology there are "nine worlds":

• Midgard (Earth; land of human mortals)
• Alfheimr (land of the fair elves)
• Svartalfaheim (land of the black elves, including Dvergar/dwarves)
• Vanaheimr (land of the Vanir)
• Muspellheim (land of fire)
• Jotunheim (land of the giants)
• Asgard (land of the Aesir/gods)
• Hel (the netherworld)

Muspelli (Fire giants, also eldjotnar) come from Muspellheim, but a number of different types of giants come from Jotunheim.  These include risar (such as Bergrisar or mountain giants and Vedrisar), Žursar (or "thursar", which may come from "to thirst" and an example is HrimŽursar (aka, Rime (aka "frost") giants)), jotunar (possibly from "etan", to eat; thus "man-eaters", and include Bjargjotnar and Eldjotnar).  There are also giantesses known as gygjur and ividjur.  Jotun can also refer to norse trolls.

So far most are self-evident but I probably should mention that the ividjur were forest giantesses and their people were know to be able to take animal form or such.  Skorgrthursar would probably be a viable term as a generic or for the male counterpart, although I do not recall if I made it up or located it in mythology, but in any case wood giants should be able to shapeshift into a specific type of tree or animal form depending on tribe  (Fenris would be an example of a giant that is half wood-giant and thus form-locked).

Rime giants were believed to be composed for ice/frost almost entirely, possibly with bits of earth in them (thus how Ymir's body became Midgard), and were believed to sail in on ships (or icebergs) during freezing fogs or blizzards (thus why they would be covered in hard rime even if not entirely made of water).

[Remy Sinclair]

Personally this should be in the DFRPG Spoiler Quarantine Zone. I have some input but I am afraid they would be spoilers.

[AsaTJ]

I don't think anything he's said so far is a spoiler, but I can see your point.

I am an avid scholar of Norse mythology- it occupies a significant portion of my life, and I'm glad to help.  However, up until now it just seems like you're just posting information and I'm not sure what, if anything, you need help with.

A note on Svartalfr- there's a bit of a lore debate still going on with these guys.  It's pretty clear at this point that "Svartalf" refers to the dwarves, but there are some who believe there is a separate race supported in the sagas of "Dokkralfr," true "dark elves" that are counterparts to the Alfar.  They would have their own realm, explaining why there are attested to be Nine Worlds, and yet most sources (including your post) only name eight.  As for what the Dokkralfr would look like... there really isn't anything in the lore describing them, so I guess it would be up to the GM to fill in those gaps.

Also, about your discussion of giants.  In Old Norse, -jur (pronounced "yoor," just as a note to anyone reading) is just a suffix that takes a male noun and makes it female.  So you could add -jur to the end of any of the jotun tribes to describe a female of that race and, probably, remove it to describe a male of the gygjur or ividjur.

For example, a female of the Aesir is called an Asynjur, and a female of the Vanir is called a Vanjur.
Reversing that rule with Gygjur and Ividjur to get the male counterparts, we'd have Gygir and Ividir.
That's more of a linguistics answer than a lore-supported answer, but for a roleplaying game I'd say it's close enough. 

[GruffAndTumble]

I have some info on how Dvergar and Frost Giants (I'm not going to attempt to call them by the proper terminology with a bona fide scholar of these matters looking at the thread) fit in to my version of the Dresdenverse, but it definitely is spoileriffic, so just PM me or start a new thread to get it.

[AsaTJ]

I'm not going to attempt to call them by the proper terminology with a bona fide scholar of these matters looking at the thread

The only thing "Bona fide" about me is that I'm a narcissistic douche, so Terminology away!  XD
I actually just call them Frost jotun in my game to keep it simple.  And my explanation for them is also simple, and not even very spoiler-y.  I basically just have it that most of what the Norsemen called the "Nine Worlds" are just parts of Faerie or the Greater Nevernever Metro Area.

[GruffAndTumble]

The only thing "Bona fide" about me is that I'm a narcissistic douche, so Terminology away!  XD
I actually just call them Frost jotun in my game to keep it simple.  And my explanation for them is also simple, and not even very spoiler-y.  I basically just have it that most of what the Norsemen called the "Nine Worlds" are just parts of Faerie or the Greater Nevernever Metro Area.

Ah, it sounded to me like you were a Professor of Mythology or similar, from how you described your pursuit of the knowledge. I tend to just refer to giants and jotuns or jotnar, with an English adjective if a particular type comes up.

[gaelvin]

In "Changes" Harry mentions that "

(click to show/hide)

...it took serious compensation to convince a svartalf to work with iron.

" This would suggest that, at least according to JB's version of things, the nature of many of the non-god beings from Norse mythology are essentially the same as the Fae.

I figured I'd spoiler that quote just to be on the safe side.

[Drachasor]

The only thing "Bona fide" about me is that I'm a narcissistic douche, so Terminology away!  XD
I actually just call them Frost jotun in my game to keep it simple.  And my explanation for them is also simple, and not even very spoiler-y.  I basically just have it that most of what the Norsemen called the "Nine Worlds" are just parts of Faerie or the Greater Nevernever Metro Area.

I see no reason why the real world and the Fae realms couldn't be just 3 of the 9 worlds.  Perhaps the area of wild fae is a 4th one of them, perhaps not.

The Nevernever is pretty clearly a HUGE place and they've clearly stated parts of it have nothing to do with the Fae.

Hmm, the realm of Angels and similar beings could be Asgard, while the hell-like parts could be Muspellheim (or something totally different).

Anyhow, the Nevernever is very large.

[Tsunami]

In "Changes" Harry mentions that "

(click to show/hide)

...it took serious compensation to convince a svartalf to work with iron.

" This would suggest that, at least according to JB's version of things, the nature of many of the non-god beings from Norse mythology are essentially the same as the Fae.

I figured I'd spoiler that quote just to be on the safe side.

Problem is that the Dwarves, or Svartalf as they are called originally, are the ones who made basically all the artifacts in Norse myth. Odin's spear for example was made by Dwalin, King of the Svartalfs. I don't recall who specifically made all the others, but they include Thors Hammer, Sif's Hair, Freyr's Ship...

Legendary Blacksmiths who are vulnerable to iron... doesn't really track for me.

[Ihadris]

One of my players is big on norse mythology and his Wizard is very much centered on that theme but Norse is one area of lore that Im quite ignorant of. This thread has already been very informative! Is there any reccomended sources of reading?

[gaelvin]

Problem is that the Dwarves, or Svartalf as they are called originally, are the ones who made basically all the artifacts in Norse myth. Odin's spear for example was made by Dwalin, King of the Svartalfs. I don't recall who specifically made all the others, but they include Thors Hammer, Sif's Hair, Freyr's Ship...

Legendary Blacksmiths who are vulnerable to iron... doesn't really track for me.

I'm just pointing out the direction that JB seems to be going with the Books. This is for people who are concerned about the canon. For any individual game interpretation, go with what you like, of course. My own work-around for this is to say that the Legendary Dwarven Smiths forged those Norse Artifacts from mystical metals found only in the Nevernever, some of which look like iron or steel to the unschooled mortal eye. Incidentally, this works for bits of folklore from other cultures as well.

[Deadmanwalking]

Svartalfar are very different from dwarves, mythologically speaking, and a lot closer to the Fae. I know of no reason limitations applying to them should apply to dwarves.

[AsaTJ]

One of my players is big on norse mythology and his Wizard is very much centered on that theme but Norse is one area of lore that Im quite ignorant of. This thread has already been very informative! Is there any reccomended sources of reading?

Snorri Sturlusson's "Prose Edda" is essentially "The Beginner's Guide to Norse Lore."  Depending on the translation, it's also not terribly difficult to understand.  I use the Jesse L. Byock translation, which is more plain English than some of the other ones.

If you want more in-depth from there, you can check out the Poetic Edda.  It's much longer and much more difficult to understand without context.  I'd go with the Carroline Larrington translation for a beginner, but I ultimately much prefer the Lee M. Hollander one- he tries to preserve the poetic flow of the pieces, whereas Larrington just translates the lines dryly to try to make them understandable to English speakers.
There are probably half a dozen other translations, but those are the two I can vouch for.

If you still want more after that, "Saga of the Volsungs" is definitely the next one to check out.  It's the story of Sigurd the Dragon Slayer.  In Germany it is known as the Nibelungenleid and was the inspiration for Richard Wagner's Ring Cycle.

Beyond those three, there are dozens of Icelandic sagas worth a read.  Njal's Saga and Egil's Saga are two of my favorites.

Deadmanwalking- Svartalfar actually are dwarves, and don't let White Wolf tell you any different.   

[theDwarf]

One of my players is big on norse mythology and his Wizard is very much centered on that theme but Norse is one area of lore that Im quite ignorant of. This thread has already been very informative! Is there any reccomended sources of reading?

Thank you, as that is one of the reasons I started it

I know some, but I know there are always others who know more than I and a communal thread helps me immensely