Sleep Spell question

[Simon_the_Red]

If I wanted to design a Thaumatugical Sleep spell, would you have to shove enough energy into the spell to take out the target entirely, similiar to the Sell's kiling spell?  Or would it be as easy as just giving them a temporary aspect such as "asleep"?    The later seems a bit too easy and powerful.  Or could you give the person a consequence of "asleep"

Im struggling a bit with how to do this, please help!  How would you do a sleep spell?

TIA

[Tbora]

I'd go with the latter, sleep spells arn't suppose to be very hard, Harry did an evocation version of it in White Night I believe.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

   I agree. Call it a mild consequence, Harder than a declaration, much easier than killing. That sounds about right to me.

[Simon_the_Red]

Would you walk me through that mechanics-wise?

[Deadmanwalking]

Well, it depends on what level of effectiveness you're aiming for, but assuming it's a Mental Attack then you need 5 shifts to Take Out anyone who refuses to take the Consequence, and then their Defensive skill +5 Shifts to really be sure of it hitting. Call it 16 shifts to effect anyone short of the Merlin who's not behind wards, and more like 12 for mook level antagonists, +2 Shifts to make it effect everyone in a particular Zone.

[Simon_the_Red]

Thank you, that helped us a lot!

[Deadmanwalking]

Happy to be of help. 

[Nyarlathotep5150]

   Or, you could do it as a maneuver to apply "Asleep" as an Aspect.
   This is somewhat easier to pull off
      Complexity equals targets Conviction (+5 if you want to be certain he fails the resist) X the number of times you want to be able to tag(invoke it for free) the sleep aspect.
      The downside here is that after you run out of tags, you will have to give the target a Fate point everytime he tries to act, in order to invoke the asleep aspect.
    
       you can also do it as a mild consequence
       Complexity equals targets Conviction (again with the optional +5), + his mental stress track +2 for the mild Consequence
       In this option, you still need to keep invoking the Consequence to keep him down, but the consequence will last beyond the scene.
  
       To full on put him to sleep, so you don't have to worry about him at all, you need to take him out.
       Complexity equals targets Conviction (ditto the +5) + his mental stress track+20 to bypass all his Consequence levels (Mild, Moderate, Severe, Extreme) and thats if he doesn't have any extras from anything, +1 to take him out.
        Then you've taken him out of the scene with the descriptor that hes asleep, and don't have to worry about him anymore... But a Complexity of 26+targets Conviction, is pretty steep just to put someone to sleep. I'd pay the fate points.

[JesterOC]

  Or, you could do it as a maneuver to apply "Asleep" as an Aspect.
   This is somewhat easier to pull off
      Complexity equals targets Conviction (+5 if you want to be certain he fails the resist) X the number of times you want to be able to tag(invoke it for free) the sleep aspect.
      The downside here is that after you run out of tags, you will have to give the target a Fate point everytime he tries to act, in order to invoke the asleep aspect.

I brought up something like this earlier, I think that instead of using your tag to invoke the aspect, you use it to invoke for effect. This lets you say. "He falls asleep" and that is it.  Now the target is asleep. I would assume that since the magic is now over, anything that would wake up someone sleeping would also wake up the victim.

I am still new at this, but I think that is the way to go.

JesterOC

[Nyarlathotep5150]

   I was relisting it to explain the math.
   But I think we're all mostly new at this, which is why I  forgot about invoking for effect.
   That would probably work, but as you said, in that instance they would be awakened by any loud noise or anything that would normally awaken them.
   

[CMEast]

It depends on the context, if you want a combatant in a conflict to fall asleep mid-fight it's gonna cost a lot of shifts. If you're making a bored guard fall asleep on a quiet night without him seeing anything suspicious I'd say that was pretty easy.Just a quick maneuver to apply the sticky aspect 'can't keep his eyes open' with an opposing roll at mediocre defense. Then get your stealth on as he nods off. Make sure he's out of coffee and other stimulants so that he doesn't automatically remove it as a supplemental action

[Nyarlathotep5150]

If you're making a bored guard fall asleep on a quiet night without him seeing anything suspicious I'd say that was pretty easy.

   I wouldn't say that it was necessarily easier in that instance, but a bored guard would clearly have an aspect on him that you could invoke for shifts. I would also rule that the scene (a quiet night without seeing anything suspicious), probably has another.
   I do agree that knocking someone out in combat would be much harder, but that would most likely be handled with Evocation, And I believe Simon was mostly working at it from a Thaumaturgy angle.
   But even then, theres a lot of different ways one could do it. The magic system is pretty fluid.

[Drachasor]

All uses of sleep magic in the books, for what it is worth, have been on people that wouldn't take a consequence to avoid it.  That's why covering a building wasn't that hard.

[wyvern]

Just had to share this thought - if you're sleeping a bunch of mortals, and one of them *is* willing to take a consequence to stay active, consider this consequence: "Clearly I'm Dreaming".  Just fits so perfectly with a non-clued-in mortal and any sort of supernatural stuff going around.

[EldritchFire]

Why not just treat it as a block?

"My sleep spells block him from taking any action."

And it is opposed by an appropriate mental-type skill.

6-8 shifts of block would be good against most enemies, while tougher and more mentally powerful foes would require 10+ shifts.

-EF