Magical nuke-equivalents.

[Belial666]

Thaumaturgy and Ritual have no upper limit to how much power you can put in one working, right? That means that a really unscrupulous disruption ritualist -say, a red court vampire- could start sacrificing people to up complexity. Every sacrifice adds a whopping 22 shifts to the effect. And there is no time limit; you could keep sacrificing people to the same ritual place you set up for years... until you build up and unleash a 20000-shift curse that obliterates an entire bloodline or something.
Alternatively, an equally unscrupulous but smarter ritualist could tie up a hundred people in his den. Then he could ritually bleed or torture them one by one for one exchange, inflicting small amounts of pain each time - a mild consequence. By the time he came back to torture the first victim, an hour (couple of scenes) would have passed, allowing them to recover (the consequence to heal) and the circle to start anew. Doing it for a few hours each day and then having some helpers water and feed the captives would allow thousands of shifts a day.
To call up the power once the ritual complexity is amassed, the caster, even if we assume 1 shift per exchange and that and exchange is a few seconds, would need an hour for 1000 shifts. If he has a +2 control focus, he could safely call 3000 shifts in an hour. If he has a +5 focus, requiring a dedicated ritualist of at least feet in the water level (-5 refresh), he could call 6000 shifts.

Let's see actual numbers. Assuming zone progression is linear and you can't get bigger zones after a while;

An average rocket or smart bomb is weapons 8-10 for an entire zone, equivalent to 12 shifts of ritual-easily within the abilities of any ritualist without sacrifice.
An average cruise missile or big bomb would be weapons 10-12 for five zones, taking out a medium building. That's 22 shifts, the power of a single sacrifice.
A small nuclear explosion is weapons 20 for 500 zones, taking out dozens of city blocks. That's 1000 shifts or so, the work of a single day of preparation in a major working.
A greater nuke that takes out an entire major city is weapons 40 for 20.000 zones. That's about 40.000 shifts, meaning it can be acheived by a dedicated ritualist by sacrificing 2.000 people or torturing 100 people for two months, and then spending 8 hours to call up the humongous amount of energy.


A supernatural organization taking advantage of third-world countries could easily get that many humans to sacrifice or torture over time. A single practitioner could take advantage of circumstances, cause events to run in his favor to, say, have a couple thousand spirits at hand to devour and bring about that level of power, or make a very special arcane drug and then sell it, not only to finace his work but also link the victims of the drug to his ritual. 1000 junkies stoned for a week (several consequences per day each) could give that much power.


How many evil ritualists are there in the world again? Better hope nobody does anything stupid like disband the only governing body policing the use of magic or the consequences might make a major nuclear exchange seem like a better idea...

[Deadmanwalking]

Alternatively, an equally unscrupulous but smarter ritualist could tie up a hundred people in his den. Then he could ritually bleed or torture them one by one for one exchange, inflicting small amounts of pain each time - a mild consequence. By the time he came back to torture the first victim, an hour (couple of scenes) would have passed, allowing them to recover (the consequence to heal) and the circle to start anew. Doing it for a few hours each day and then having some helpers water and feed the captives would allow thousands of shifts a day.

This one doesn't work. Consequences require more than just time to heal...they require actual justification (ie: medical attention). Something similar might work, but not on quite the scale you're talking about. Everything else is mostly true though.

Also, have you read Changes?

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Because the Red Court totally do exactly this, though they can't afford the attention drawn by doing it regularly.

And finally: With as much time and effort as a ritualist needs to put together this sort of thing
1. Someone definitely has time to stop them, at least potentially (particularly if warned by, say, the Gatekeeper).
2. A good Wizard can get almost as many shifts with pure ritual prep and no sacrifices at all. You can do 20 or 30 Declarations an hour if you're really good (Yes, really). Sacrifices are for people who are lazy or in a hurry and have easy access to the people in question, not really this kind of thing.


And doing this on the kind of scale you're talking about will also draw the attention of, well, everybody. Expect White Court and Knights of the Cross alike to show up to stop you. What you're doing is both profoundly wrong and stupid for the supernatural community as a whole in the long run. One of those two things'll piss off almost everybody. Hell, something like Ferrovax or Odin might show up and swat you like a bug for drawing attention.


But yeah, disbanding the White Council without establishing a different magical law enforcement body immediately is the definition of a bad idea.

[Belial666]

That's why you have your cadre of helpers offering medical attention to the people you torture. A good torturer knows the victim must recover every so often or you risk killing them for nothing.

You can do 20 or 30 Declarations an hour if you're really good (Yes, really).

Uh, how do declarations work for a really high-end ritual? You can make that many declarations, yes. That doesn't mean there are so many declarations to make; eventually you'll run out of different things to declare, realistically speaking.


Perhaps the most terrifying ritualist is one with Mythic Recovery. They can get 12-14 shifts per scene all by themselves using their own blood to fuel the magic. Spending 8 hours every night (no need to sleep) to gather power, they can have a ritual brewing with 1000 shifts/day without any help. That's probably one reason deities can be terrifying magically-speaking. They can blast you with 1000-shift effects by merely using their free time.

[KOFFEYKID]

The question is, "Does the scene end if they dont stop casting the spell?"

I mean, it is sort of a bizarre effect, since a scene doesn't last a static amount of time, and a GM could realistically say that the whole ritual takes place in one scene, that is essentially really really long. Then your deity wouldn't be healing, since he only heals up at the beginning of a scene.

[Deadmanwalking]

Uh, how do declarations work for a really high-end ritual? You can make that many declarations, yes. That doesn't mean there are so many declarations to make; eventually you'll run out of different things to declare, realistically speaking.

Not that limited. If we're talking, say, Ebenezar McCoy in his ritual sanctum, he can use sympathetic magic to build an entire barn with his own two hands, carefully inscribing each log with certain symbols before ritualistically making boards out of them, anointing them in sacred oils, and then inscribing new symbols into each board and beam to build a spell as he builds the structure. Now these rapidly become Fantastic difficulty declarations if he repeats them again and again...but he has Fantastic Lore. And how many logs go into making the boards and beams for a barn, because that's easily three or four per log, and then four or five more per board or beam, then everything he does in putting it together just so...

That's easily hundreds of Declarations right there. Plus, hey, new barn.



And I'd absolutely say each Spell is one scene barring some really good justifications for it not being.

[Belial666]

They are not casting a spell. They are preparing a ritual, which is often measured in multiple scenes. The rule is that Ritual-time, for every scene you could have been involved but chose to do the ritual instead, you get a scene of ritual preparation. The simplest way to use that time is research, giving a flat +1 per scene you give up but you can do other stuff like ritual torture or ritual sacrifice or blood magic or calling your sponsors or additional casters to help you raise energy.

Besides, thaumaturgy preparation does not have to be done all at once.

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The Red Court killed hundreds (if not thousands) of people over many days to produce the bloodline curse.

Harry enchanted Little Chicago over months of effort. The Kemmlerites raised power, inflicted citywide terror (mild consequence on thousands of people) and spirits for sacrifice into the Darkhallow over days of effort.


The actual casting of the ritual comes after you have raised all the complexity to Hell and back-say, 6000 shifts for Tunguska. Then you must actually call that much power and fuel it into your preparations. Assuming Ebenezar had a Discipline and Conviction of Superb back in 1909 and a +3 control bonus total via foci and specializations for Disruption, he can safely call Power equal to his Control-4 at every exchange. Statistically, once in 256 rolls you'll get a -4 hence playing it safely. So Ebenezar calls 4 shifts of Power at every exchange safely, needing 1500 exchanges to get it all. An exchange is a few seconds so Ebenezar would need to actually cast for 2 hours straight to get that much power.
Those two hours are the actual casting. You can't stop once you begin or you face fallout and backlash... of all the power you've gathered until the interruption. And several thousand shifts of backlash might be quite spectacular.

[Deadmanwalking]

True, actually, now that you mention it.

A spellcaster with Thaumaturgy and Mythic Recovery could indeed do something like that in theory, if they're machocistic or self-sacrificing anyway.



Most spellcasters like that have names like "Odin". I have no problem with him or someone on his level doing that for, say, 9 days and getting a hell of an effect...

[Belial666]

Odin is a master of Foresight. And he definitely is self-sacrificing given the eye thing. I'd bet he has dozens of rituals already prepared, only needing to call the power for them at the right moment.

[KOFFEYKID]

This reminds me, I was thinking once of a enchanted item that basically provides aspects to tag for a ritual, basically it was sort of a Psychic Litmus paper, you would activate it and it would take A] A reading of the energies in the room, and B] a reading of the memory of object in the room.

This would provide two aspects you could tag for a divination ritual meant to piece together a vision of the events within a room. Im sure the idea could be expanded upon.

[Deadmanwalking]

Odin is a master of Foresight. And he definitely is self-sacrificing given the eye thing. I'd bet he has dozens of rituals already prepared, only needing to call the power for them at the right moment.

I was actually referring to how he gained the Runes in the first place. He hung himself (like with a noose) on a tree for nine days with a spear wound in his side, a sacrifice of himself to himself.

Sounds like exactly the kind of Ritual you're talking about Mythic Recovery characters doing...

This reminds me, I was thinking once of a enchanted item that basically provides aspects to tag for a ritual, basically it was sort of a Psychic Litmus paper, you would activate it and it would take A] A reading of the energies in the room, and B] a reading of the memory of object in the room.

This would provide two aspects you could tag for a divination ritual meant to piece together a vision of the events within a room. Im sure the idea could be expanded upon.

Not too much since it's 3 shifts of effect per Aspect (4 if your GM rules they need to be Sticky for this, as I would) and that's a maximum of four per Item even for someone on the Senior Council (max three for PCs, or three and two respecively if they need to be Sticky). It might be cost effective compared to direct Complexity adders...but on the other hand it's only limited use.

[Belial666]

Hey, using spells for sticky aspects you can invoke in a spell is a great idea. A submerged character with conviction 5, discipline 5, lore 4 could get a lot of power. Evocation, Thaumaturgy, 3 refinements give you;
Spirit power 5 + 3 focus +1 specialization, Spirit Control 5 + 3 focus + 2 specialization, Ritual Control 5 + 2 focus + 1 specialization (in disruption)

In a scene he could use magic to enhance the power he gives to the ritual

2 spells of Power 8, 4 sticky aspects. (Rote)
2 spells of Power 12, 6 sticky aspects. (Rote, taking backlash 2 total)

That's 20 shifts of power per scene right there. He alternates with 1 scene of research for the stress to go away (since going from one stressful situation to another means the stress might not heal) and he has an average of 10.5 shifts per scene. When the time comes to cast the ritual, he can control 4 shifts of power per exchange, casting a 4000-shift ritual in an hour or so.


Plus, he attacks at power 9, control 10 at least-meaning he's also above average in quick and dirty combat too.

[Deadmanwalking]

Personally, I'd allow that...in theory and assuming he can justify the Aspects with the Spell in question. It's not going to be much quicker or easier than just getting Declarations, which won't cost you Mental Stress, but you can do it if you like. Though that second Spell costs significantly more Backlash and Mental Stress than is reasonable and convenient, IMO.