easiest way to save a black court vampire and return them to a human

[Deadmanwalking]

Personally, I'd say that there is nothing left of the person in the Black Court Vampire. Their soul is in heaven (or wherever) while the Black Court walks around wearing their face...sorta, anyway. Which means that what you're talking about is ressurection without access to the body, and should be treated as such. That's not impossible, but it IS really hard.

[JustinS]

I was in fact going down the laws as my mental checklist, otherwise I would have not thought about a body-swap.

Bear in mind all of those things will more than likely end up with a characters head on the proverbial chopping block.

[Drulinda]

assuming all it takes to turn a person black court is to die by another blampires bite or something similar it could be that necomancers like cowls apprentice can bring a freshly turned vampire back from to dead.

[InFerrumVeritas]

The way I see it (which I recommend you take with a grain of salt as it doesn't necessarily have direct evidence in cannon) is that when the Black Court Vamp kills, it consumes the soul.  When the body rises, it is only physically the same person with shadows of memories, etc (the brain is intact and reanimated as well).  Thus, it's not an enchantment (and couldn't even be undone by the Fairy Mothers).

So, to turn a BCV back, I can think of one way: re-create the soul.  Not impossible, but very, very difficult and likely to not be taken well by various powers (including the capital G).  Also, likely to not go 100% correctly.

If the Vamp is significantly old enough (more than a few days of decomposition), you'd have to re-create the body too.

[tymire]

Yep, and that is why a body swap would be best  .

You don't have to worry about the existing decomposing thing.

Don't think Jim ever mentions what BCV do with souls or how it affects them.  Could could easly run with the fact that it's actually a curse (or supernatural dease) instead of the demon replacement that reds have.  There is a little bit of insight given in the short story with with Druila?, Dresden, his brother, and the brownies in the mall.  From that one it seems like she came out of the transformation pretty much intact mentally, except for her high on power and revenge thing, which easly could be from the fact that she could finally strike back at life.....

[ways and means]

The Blacks are dead, they have the living dead ability so either their soul is trapped in a fleshy prison or it has ascended. If the latter is true all you are dealing with is someone with the memories and intelect of a dead person not the person himself. If the soul is trapped in the body destroying the body would be the best way to save the soul.

[evileeyore]

There is a little bit of insight given in the short story with with Druila?, Dresden, his brother, and the brownies in the mall.  From that one it seems like she came out of the transformation pretty much intact mentally, except for her high on power and revenge thing, which easly could be from the fact that she could finally strike back at life.....

She also had the desire to strike back, which she might not have had, or might not have had to the malicious extent she had once turned into the Bampire.

I like the "body swap" idea... but if the Soul has ascended, what of the new person you're "creating"?

Dead person's memories in a new body with a different soul?  There'd be some level of havoc to pay there, not only the outright murder of one person (the "host"), but you're dealing with the fundimental nature of a Soul.

Is the Soul just energy?  Or is it flavored and shaped by the body and mind?  Questions that must be answered if you're going that direction.

[ryanshowseason2]

I think you went wrong at "easiest"

From my meager understanding this kind of thing would be considered impossible or highly improbable, much like how modern science considers perpetual motion devices to be impossible or how concretely it believes that for every action there is equal and opposite reaction.

I feel like its right up there, you average peer wizard or lore knowledgeable entity would consider you crazy or obsessive. Like Dr. Frankenstein.

Authorities would likely consider both you and your creation too hazardous to exist.

If it were so easily possible to change people back it would be done far more often, as in the white council would probably be doing it all the time, but considering they dont...

I would be inclined to say that if it were possible the only way to make it happen would be from powers expressly closed off to wizards, namely outsiders. I wouldn't even say necromancy would do it that is still too easy and it would be done more often if it were possible.

[Silverblaze]

To answer this question properly another question must be first answered.

How are Blampires made?  I doubt anything in the Dresdenverse is so simple as saliva in the bite.  There must be some magic in it.  Maybe an Embrace like function from White Wolf?  Maybe a ritual?  If this is established in game cannon or in any of the books/WoJ...I missed it...

Once that is figured out, reversing it should be a smidge easier.  A huge thaumaturgy ritual with steps representing the creation of the BCV(blampire) in reverse?

barring that one can skip to Plot Device or similar powers?

I liked "Kill the vampire, then bring it back as a vanilla mortal".

[Richard_Chilton]

When I see questions like this I mentally rephrase them to "How do you change a template's core concept?".

How do you save a Changeling from being a Changeling? Sure, he gets the choice, but if you think he's going to pick the wrong way and you want your half brother to be human, how do you do that?

How do you take the magic out of a wizard?

How do you make the choice for a White Court Virgin so they can become human?

How do you cure a Red Court Infectee? A Red Court Vampire?

The answers to all of these questions is that you don't, not using the rules as written.  Oh, there are dramatic ways of doing it using plot elements (one of the Mothers getting involved, an archangel showing up and unloading, as deal with THE (not "a", but "THE") Devil; that sort of thing) but the rules as written don't let you change another character's high concept - which in all the cases above include the template.

Richard

[ryanshowseason2]

Once that is figured out, reversing it should be a smidge easier.  A huge thaumaturgy ritual with steps representing the creation of the BCV(blampire) in reverse?

If only everything was that simple that you could just "do it in reverse".

I can follow directions in reverse to get back home but this logic just doesn't apply any old place, and I'd wager magic is complicated enough to constitute as one of those places it doesn't.

A lot of processes on this planet and in this reality simply don't work this way, you can't do fusion in reverse and hope to regain nuclear material, you can't do fire in reverse and reconstruct burned buildings, IMHO this is a very flawed interpretation of how anything is fixed.

The idea of killing and then raising also assumes death resets the soul, you could just as well be re raising the BCV and be back at square one again. Seems like too much of a shortcut to me.

Speaking as a GM it seems rather flippant to be able to just have plot points reversed at character/player whims. Whats the point of anything dramatic happening if it can be reversed? I'll leave that for "Days of our lives" or "General Hospital" to explore TYVM.

[devonapple]

When I see questions like this I mentally rephrase them to "How do you change a template's core concept?".

That *is* a good way to phrase it.

[evileeyore]

How are Blampires made?

That is a good question and it can't be simple, regardless of how "easy" they are to supposedly dispatch by vanilla humans, if making more Bampires were easy, they could overrun whole towns, breed armies in a night....

Granted...  Drulinda did raise both rentacops within a radically short time period, so it's possible it is very easy, little more than drinking a human dry and letting the body get back up as a Bampire.  The low numbers could simply be that smart Bampires don't allow too many of thier victim's to raise, to keep their whereabouts more subtle and to reduce the competition.



But simplecreation does not indicate it would be simple to undo.

[Silverblaze]

Thaumaturgy is in theory what plot level characters use to achieve miraculous solutions, they are just WAY better at it...or have way more power to pump into it.

I agree it shouldn't be simple to reverse the process, but if it was something to the tune of getting blood/parts from the "master" vampire and using thaumatrgy to in some way render this part inert then one may be able to undo the blessing/curse/gift.

It may require

(click to show/hide)

a bloodline curse similar to what happened in Changes

.  I'd hate to reuse that, but it stands to reason a variation should/could work.

Perhaps a variation

(click to show/hide)

could have cured the RCV rather than killing them

.

I'm not saying I think it is or should be possible.  I'm pretty much in the boat that claims "plot device only" but I do so enjoy playing devils advocate.

[BumblingBear]

Once you go black, you never go back.

Case closed.