Author Topic: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch  (Read 9831 times)

Offline CMEast

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2010, 12:08:01 PM »
I would no more give a fate point for acceding to those laws to a wizard than I would give a mortal a fate point for his inability to ignore gravity.

Ah but a mortal can't break the laws of gravity but a mage can break the laws of magic. I wouldn't give away a fate every time they met a mortal and didn't kill them, but if they allow something bad to happen instead of breaking the rules to stop it then I think they've earned a fate point i.e. if the bad guy can only be stopped by death and not stopping him means something awful will happen.

Offline luminos

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2010, 12:13:36 PM »
A mage can break his laws, so he already has more freedom of action, i.e., is not in a compellible scenario.  And in the situation where only death can stop a bad guy, the pure mortal is in the exact same bind (except he has less ability to bring forth that death) so if a wizard would be compelled by such a situation, then the pure mortal damned well better be given a compel for the same thing.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2010, 12:15:24 PM »
Yeah, there's definitely a line. IMO, avoiding breaking the laws of magic in and of itself isn't necessarily Compel-worthy. It becomes compel-worthy f it makes legitimate trouble, and the PC in question has a specific reason not to do so (like being a Warden or otherwise on the White Council). Hell, I'd probably throw Compels at a guy with "Lawbreaking Sorcerer" as his High Concept to break the Laws. It all depends on the character.

The catch on the other hand, is always worth a Fate Pont when it comes up, because it is, by definition, your High Concept (or Item Aspect if you get it from an Item of Power) being used against you. Exceptions would likely be made for "anything but" Catches like that on Ogre's Physical Immunity. An Ogre doesn't get an FP every time someone fails to use magic on him...but he does whenever they use Cold Iron.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2010, 12:17:43 PM »
A mage can break his laws, so he already has more freedom of action, i.e., is not in a compellible scenario.  And in the situation where only death can stop a bad guy, the pure mortal is in the exact same bind (except he has less ability to bring forth that death) so if a wizard would be compelled by such a situation, then the pure mortal damned well better be given a compel for the same thing.

If they had an Aspect involving a commitment to not killing? Absolutely. Batman sure as hell would, for example.

My point (and I think that of others) is that "Wizard of the White Council" is precisely that kind of Aspect. It implies a devotion to the Laws of Magic and a devotion to avoiding breaking them. That's what's being compelled, not the "I Do Magic" part.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 12:20:28 PM by Deadmanwalking »

Offline jalrin

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2010, 12:56:38 PM »
What Deadman just said.


The laws of magic are also different however because the lawbreaker stunt not just massively complicates a character's life, but have the potential to make it unplayable.  Using such a hammer by changing the rules to make it almost impossible for a mortal spell-slinger to avoid it with care and then turning around and not allowing compels when that fits the concept ("morally grey" casters should not get this benefit but someone who really would be hyper-cautious such as Donald Morgan deserves it) risks creating an unhealthy dynamic
where players feel that the GM is screwing with them.***

*** I was really looking forward to playing this game but, because the other potential GMs all pull these stunts in our WoD, everybody else has quite literally refused to play unless I GM the game.   I say this, not because I think anyone here would do this, but to just provide the benefit of my experience.  And also in hopes that someone will take pity on my Bookworm of the White Council and give me an idea on how to find him a home, because it is sad when a character is homeless. :(  
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 01:56:11 PM by jalrin »

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2010, 01:11:06 PM »
And also in hopes that someone will take pity on my Bookworm of the White Council and give me an idea on how to find him a home, because it is sad when a character is homeless. :(  

Well, there is a whole Play by Post sub-board. Check it regularly and I suspect you'll find an appropriate game evetually. I mean, abortive starts aside, I'm in two actual games right now and have a prospective third, and I'm not even trying that hard.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 01:13:06 PM by Deadmanwalking »

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2010, 01:20:34 PM »
I never really considered giving mortal spellcasters fate points for not killing people with magic given that the "taken out" system gives total control (witin reason) of the defeated character's fate to the victor.  A compel is worth a fate point when it complicates a character's life, and since the character in question is free to engage in the conflict with all of their magical might there really isn't much of a complication.

On the other hand compelling a character with the appropriate aspects to turn that knock out blast into one that will spatter a hated enemy all over the wall is something I'd do.
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Offline jalrin

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2010, 01:51:22 PM »
DFJunkie,

Your system works too.  The difficulty is that there are a number of GMs who have apparently crafted their own custom house rules that make it virtually impossible to use magic without the taken out result being mandated by GM fiat as automatically death.  This is a severe deviation from the rulebook and makes seriously complicated play balance.  I am currently redesigning the campaign I am GMing to incorporate a bunch of refugees from such games- none of whom were playing spell-slingers but who are so tired of the other GMs in my city behaving like this that they would rather have a less experienced GM (granted one whose knowledge of all things Dresden is better than the other potential GMs) than deal with this issue.


That being said, while I would probably go with your system for the most part, if not killing the opponent with magic will create problems for the character and they have an appropriate non-killing aspect, then I would still award the FATE point

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2010, 02:45:46 PM »
Quote
That being said, while I would probably go with your system for the most part, if not killing the opponent with magic will create problems for the character and they have an appropriate non-killing aspect, then I would still award the FATE point

Oh sure, in that rather unusual situation it would certainly be worth a fate point. 

In fact, I would say that any character with the word "wizard" in their high concept has an aspect that implicitly forbids them from breaking any of the rules of magic, and any time the characters abstention from lawbreaking substantially complicates their life it is worth a fate point.
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Offline kustenjaeger

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2010, 03:43:15 PM »
Greetings

DFJunkie,

Your system works too.  The difficulty is that there are a number of GMs who have apparently crafted their own custom house rules that make it virtually impossible to use magic without the taken out result being mandated by GM fiat as automatically death.  This is a severe deviation from the rulebook and makes seriously complicated play balance.  ...

There's a balance to be struck between allowing unfettered use of potentially deadly magic against mortals and completely crippling wizards fighting mortals.  My view is that its' a 'table' discussion for the table to be happy with - my inclination is to enable sensible use of magic without any difficulty but to warn the player if the spell is likely to put mortals in danger.

We've got city and character creation tomorrow so we'll see how we go.

Regards

Edward

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2010, 07:47:58 PM »
On the other hand compelling a character with the appropriate aspects to turn that knock out blast into one that will spatter a hated enemy all over the wall is something I'd do.

This is exactly what I do. Usually anyway. If they throw blasts of fire at people they're going to chance accidental death via my compelling them...and a Compel to keep them to mundane weapons for a particular Conflict for that reason is sometimes appropriate. Now, they can avoid both those Compels with a little mystical ingenuity (taser-lightning is the most obvious solution)...but those may make their life more difficult in other ways.

Offline EldritchFire

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2010, 01:30:04 PM »
Imagine a group of players opening up on a horde of vampires with a firetruck full of holy water.  ;D

They actually did that in an episode of Supernatural. Except it was against demons, not vampires. Still hella effective!

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Offline ryanroyce

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2010, 01:44:38 PM »
The decision to award or not award a Fate Point is determined by a simple question, "does the aspect complicate the character's life?"  If yes, then Fate Point.  If no, then no Fate Point.  Everything else is just decoration.  If a skilled psychomancer has access to a captured NPC and has to decide between rifling through his thoughts the easy way or interrogating him the hard way, then the mage gets a Fate Point for choosing the hard way or the Lawbreaker power for choosing the easy way. 

When it comes to killing NPCs with magic, remember that even mooks have the full suite of consequences (mild, minor, severe, and extreme).  The practice of letting mooks Concede after taking only a mild consequence is a narrative device to separate the weak from the strong and keep the game moving at a brisk pace.  So, if a wizard hits one of Nico's tongueless minions with a gout of flame, then consequences are applied as normal, up to and including an extreme consequence.  If even the extreme won't save the brute, then it is perfectly reasonable that death is the only acceptable result of such an attack and the wizard breaks the First Law.  If the brute can take enough consequences to avoid a Taken Out result and then follows it up with a Concession, then the wizard did not kill with magic and does not earn Lawbreaker.  They may be crippled, maimed or just severely burned, and they may yet die from an infection or other complication, but such a death would not be directly caused by magic insofar as the Lawbreaker power is concerned (the White Council may see things differently, ahem). 

So long as everyone at the table knows this at the start, then there's an objective line between killed and not-killed that doesn't require house rules or GM adjudication.  It also serves as a nice line between murder and assault in regards to mortal law, too.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2010, 01:56:04 PM »
They actually did that in an episode of Supernatural. Except it was against demons, not vampires. Still hella effective!

-EF

My players are totally planning exactly this and have the resources to pull it off. They're also going to armor it, put heavy weaponry on top of it, and create a magical sunlight-projector as well.  They're going to name it Buffy.


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Offline CMEast

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Re: Damage vs. Bypass: Expanding the Catch
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2010, 04:19:17 PM »
My players are totally planning exactly this and have the resources to pull it off. They're also going to armor it, put heavy weaponry on top of it, and create a magical sunlight-projector as well.  They're going to name it Buffy.


I love my players sometimes.

When they start building it, let them find out that the vampires next door are building a similar vehicle for killing wizards and changelings. It'd be just like the program scrapheap challenge!