Magic Circles for fun and profit

[Kordeth]

I'm gonna say this one more time, because people keep using it as an example:

THAT WAS NOT A CIRCLE. Not as we're discussing the term, anyway. It was a Ward that hapened to be circular. Chauncy, having a will of his own, could casually walk through a mere Circle. If you doubt me, re-read the Summoning and Binding rules (which involve a warded circle to contain the summoned entity).

I'm pretty sure Chauncy, being a demon, has no free will and thus couldn't cross a circle's boundaries any more than Toot-toot, Bob, or Binder's Gray Men could--and even if he did, it would cut off the magic holding his ectoplasmic form together, and he'd promptly melt into goop.

[Slife]

I could see that, though if the circle were ever broken, the curse would then escape.

That's exactly what I meant.

And, hey, if I ever run a game I'd totally let my players do that.  Now they've got their very own sealed away evil force to keep contained.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm pretty sure Chauncy, being a demon, has no free will and thus couldn't cross a circle's boundaries any more than Toot-toot, Bob, or Binder's Gray Men could--and even if he did, it would cut off the magic holding his ectoplasmic form together, and he'd promptly melt into goop.

Demons don't have 'free will' in quite the sense mortals do, but anything with a name or sense of individual identity has more than enough individual agency to break a Circle.

And no, there's no evidence getting out of a Circle would do anything of the kind. Now, if he was surrounded by a circle once freed from the wards...that might drop his Ectoplasm and shunt him back to the Nevernever, but only if they were being maintained externally. I wouldn't bet against Chauncy having some internal energy reserves against such an eventuality.

[Rel Fexive]

If you have to fight a battle of wills to control a demon, the demon by definition has a will to fight against.  Being a 'magical being', however, means they can't easily break through a simple circle... much like they can't easily break through a threshold, I'd say.  So if they're strong enough, it won't keep them out forever, as long as they're smart enough to realise it.

Also bear in mind that most (if not all) of the demon summoning was in the earlier books, when the "rules" were not as defined as they have become after another ten books or more.

[Kordeth]

Demons don't have 'free will' in quite the sense mortals do, but anything with a name or sense of individual identity has more than enough individual agency to break a Circle.

I don't think that's accurate; Harry uses a magic circle to trap Toot-toot in Storm Front, after all--and in that case it's pretty explicitly a magic circle, not a ward. The language used to describe what Harry does is basically identical to the language every other time Harry creates a circle. Later in the same book, when he breaks the Shadowman's circle, he explicitly points out that it was because it was an act of "human will" or something similar.

And no, there's no evidence getting out of a Circle would do anything of the kind. Now, if he was surrounded by a circle once freed from the wards...that might drop his Ectoplasm and shunt him back to the Nevernever, but only if they were being maintained externally. I wouldn't bet against Chauncy having some internal energy reserves against such an eventuality.

I was referring to stepping into a circle, assuming such a feat could be accomplished without breaking it.

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't think that's accurate; Harry uses a magic circle to trap Toot-toot in Storm Front, after all--and in that case it's pretty explicitly a magic circle, not a ward. The language used to describe what Harry does is basically identical to the language every other time Harry creates a circle. Later in the same book, when he breaks the Shadowman's circle, he explicitly points out that it was because it was an act of "human will" or something similar.

Pixies are pretty borderline on the whole agent of will thing, and it could just as easily have been a Ward with Complexity 3-5 or so. It's the first book, he didn't give all the details.

I was referring to stepping into a circle, assuming such a feat could be accomplished without breaking it.

Yeah, that might work

[Slife]

I just want to see a villain make a gigantic magic circle using the earth's orbit around the sun.

[Crypt King]

I don't think that's accurate; Harry uses a magic circle to trap Toot-toot in Storm Front, after all--and in that case it's pretty explicitly a magic circle, not a ward. The language used to describe what Harry does is basically identical to the language every other time Harry creates a circle. Later in the same book, when he breaks the Shadowman's circle, he explicitly points out that it was because it was an act of "human will" or something similar.

This.  Chauncy was just one example used, so chill.  There's this incident with Toot toot, a couple of times in the books.

There is a lot of play of magic circles, that aren't wards in the books, hell the skinwalker used one to break Harry's soul garrote in book 11.  That's not a ward, or a threshold being used.

[Deadmanwalking]

Oh, I know Circles get used (and for a variety of awesome stuff)...but not usually to trap things.

The issue comes from the fact that a "Circle" is two entirely separate things in game terms:

#1: A quick thing anyone can do to block magical energy (and pretty much only magical energy).

#2: A Thaumaturgical Ward of one sort or another.


Metaphysically they are similar, though the second can do things the first can't due to the focused effort of the spellcaster's will. The second is what Harry uses to trap Toot, at least in game terms. check out YS p. 297.

[vultur]

I don't think that's accurate; Harry uses a magic circle to trap Toot-toot in Storm Front, after all--and in that case it's pretty explicitly a magic circle, not a ward. The language used to describe what Harry does is basically identical to the language every other time Harry creates a circle. Later in the same book, when he breaks the Shadowman's circle, he explicitly points out that it was because it was an act of "human will" or something similar.

Clearly making a circle isn't limited to humans however; the skinwalker uses one to cut off one of Harry's soulfire constructs, and it isn't human.

[Melfast]

I've also been interested in how to use magic circles in the game (outside of thaumaturgy).  After looking through the book I finally found a margin note from Bob on page 230 that says that magic circles could be considered like thresholds (an illustration also applied to running water): "By this definition, magical circles could be considered thresholds, but I don’t think you really need to worry about that for the purposes of the game."

The comment is slightly out of place, and I think should be at the bottom of the page near this line: "But other things serve as thresholds as well. In the broadest sense, the term “threshold” may be given to any metaphysical barrier that impedes or blocks supernatural power from passing from point A to point B."

Looking at the effects of a threshold (block, suppress, source of harm), this seems to work mechanically although going with the same Fair +2 value as standard thresholds and running water does not seem to give them the same oomph as in the game.  Maybe because of their fragility they could have a value = to the user's Conviction score but no stress tracks (magic immunity, but automatically fails against any physical attack regardless of whether it would do stress damage to a target normally)?  This feels right since Conviction represents and individual's strength of belief, which seems essential to making a successful circle.

Just my two cents.