Regarding base refresh

[prophet224]

I just have a quick question... I was looking through the character creation rules, and I saw that the 'submerged' level was 10 refresh.  I thought that refresh was out of 10 max, at which point you are no longer playable and are ruled by nature.  Or is it truly as written "when you reach 0 refresh you are no longer a playable character", such that if you are playing an 8 refresh game, you can only go up to 7 in powers and stunts; after that you would be at a net 0, and therefore non-playable?

Help! And thanks!

[Victim]

"when you reach 0 refresh you are no longer a playable character", such that if you are playing an 8 refresh game, you can only go up to 7 in powers and stunts; after that you would be at a net 0, and therefore non-playable?

Help! And thanks!

This.

[CMEast]

Generally a starting character won't have a higher refresh than 10, allowing them to spend 9 refresh points on various powers and stunts before becoming an NPC. A PC could potentially end up much higher as they gain a point of refresh for each major milestone. Played long enough, your character could in theory be at the high council level... but that's pretty unlikely.

[TheMouse]

Played long enough, your character could in theory be at the high council level... but that's pretty unlikely.

I don't think it's THAT unlikely.

Depending on pacing, I think you're pretty likely to be hitting a major milestone every 10 sessions or so. Go for a year of weekly sessions and you're pretty likely to hit 5 or so of the things, so 2 years probably hits you 10 of them. +10 Refresh from really any starting point puts you damned close to High Council level.

And I expect to see games that go that long as well as games that progress a little more quickly. Any group interested in hitting that mark and dedicated enough to their game to run it for a while will eventually produce relatively uber PCs.

[Wyrdrune]

I don't think it's THAT unlikely.

yep.

a) I don't think it's unlikely that a player character reaches the level of high council members.
b) But you have to consider that the high council members most likely "level up" off-screen while your player character levels.

[Deadmanwalking]

Eh, maybe. I personally have the Senior Council in the mid 30s on Refresh, so it'd take quite a while for PCs to actually equal them. On the other hand, my current villain is in the mid 20s and I expect my starting level PCs (as a group) to destroy her, so getting the PCs to the point of being able to take on a Senior Council member is much less difficult.

[John Galt]

Yeah.  I'd put the senior council members in at least the high 30s refresh wise.  They're out of Harry's league in Changes and he was submerged in the beginning of the series.  He's at least in the high 20s by Changes.

[Deadmanwalking]

Actually, going by the progression chart pre-Turn Coat in the book he's likely 'only' mid 20s (my build has him at right around -27, and it gives Harry a little bit more power than the book does). And like 5 of that is physical enhancement, not magic.

Still, you have a distinct point.

[prophet224]

Interesting... so the character gains more 'choice' as they go through more experiences?  Hmmm... don't know how that tracks with the system, but I guess it works for advancement purposes. 

It just seems counterintuitive that if Harry, for instance, is in the 20's in Changes, he still has choice (though granted, not much there)  while someone at refresh 8 could be considered 'ruled by nature'.

[Kordeth]

Interesting... so the character gains more 'choice' as they go through more experiences?  Hmmm... don't know how that tracks with the system, but I guess it works for advancement purposes. 

It just seems counterintuitive that if Harry, for instance, is in the 20's in Changes, he still has choice (though granted, not much there)  while someone at refresh 8 could be considered 'ruled by nature'.

Harry's had, what, around a decade of experience honing his power and strengthening his will since Storm Front? Think of will like a muscle: if you don't exercise it, don't put it to the test and devote effort to it, it doesn't grow stronger. Harry and the Senior Council and the like are capable of slinging power that would destroy the will of a lot of people precisely because they've spent all that time learning to use it safely.

[TheMouse]

I just checked Ancient Mai and the Gatekeeper, and the book estimates them to be in the upper teens. I understand that this is a starting point and that people are free to change it up to suit their games, but the book puts the line for High Council membership around that point. Which is what I remember it being roughly, and what I was talking about above when I say that you can hit that level in your game.

As for Harry, I don't think he's in the 20s as of Changes. Assuming that 1 book is 1 story, that gives him a point of Refresh every few books. If it would be every 3rd book, he's around 14. If it's every other, he's around 16. So I'll call it 15 for a nice middle road. So he's powerful, but not quite on par with a High Council member.

Then again, I play a lot of Exalted, and I like Nobilis, so the idea of the PCs becoming some of the most powerful things in the setting doesn't frighten me. I sort of like the idea that -- after a year or two of regular weekly games -- the PCs might be in line to join the High Council, or maybe be able to take the Council as part of their schemes.

[luminos]

The Merlin is capable of making a ward that held back the entire red court of vampires, so the RPG's statblock of him is severely underestimating his power, and likely every other senior council member.  I mean, OW gives the Nightmare more refresh than the senior council, and that can't be right.  

Harry has at least -20 end of changes.

(click to show/hide)

 He's got two forms of sponsored magic, marked by power, probably a couple of refinements, and several of the inhuman level enhancement powers.

[Kordeth]

The Merlin is capable of making a ward that held back the entire red court of vampires, so the RPG's statblock of him is severely underestimating his power, and likely every other senior council member.  I mean, OW gives the Nightmare more refresh than the senior council, and that can't be right. 

Harry has at least -20 end of changes.  He's got two forms of sponsored magic, marked by power, probably a couple of refinements, and several of the inhuman level enhancement powers.

Might want to spoiler some of that....

[Deadmanwalking]

I just checked Ancient Mai and the Gatekeeper, and the book estimates them to be in the upper teens. I understand that this is a starting point and that people are free to change it up to suit their games, but the book puts the line for High Council membership around that point. Which is what I remember it being roughly, and what I was talking about above when I say that you can hit that level in your game.

Those are way underpowered and stated to be so. Try adding in Listens-to-Wind's shapeshifting and you get a low-30s character minimum. He seems to be typical of them in powe level.

As for Harry, I don't think he's in the 20s as of Changes. Assuming that 1 book is 1 story, that gives him a point of Refresh every few books. If it would be every 3rd book, he's around 14. If it's every other, he's around 16. So I'll call it 15 for a nice middle road. So he's powerful, but not quite on par with a High Council member.

He gets a Major Milestone more books than not, I've got him at 18 post-Small Favor, but let's go with your 15. He, of course has -14 worth of powers and Stunts at this point. Then comes Changes, where things, well, change.

(click to show/hide)

Becoming Winter Knight grants -8 Refresh of stuff (Marked By Power, Unseelie Magic, Inhuman Strength, Speed, and Toughness with a +1 Catch) and sends him to -22 worth of powers. This will also shortly send him into NPCdom, but he is a low 20s Refresh character until then.

Then again, I play a lot of Exalted, and I like Nobilis, so the idea of the PCs becoming some of the most powerful things in the setting doesn't frighten me. I sort of like the idea that -- after a year or two of regular weekly games -- the PCs might be in line to join the High Council, or maybe be able to take the Council as part of their schemes.

Sure, and I've pointed out th lack of needing to have the same Refresh level to do that.

[TheMouse]

Unclear wording. Sorry. When I said, "As of Changes," I was thinking more at the beginning. I know he, uh, changes during the course of the story.

Then again, the RPG wasn't really written to reflect Changes.

I'm going to bow out of the debate on where one might cost the High Council. I don't have a hard copy of the book yet (I can afford it next month, I think), and I simply do not have the patience to flip through the PDF to rate everyone's power.

I will, however, stand by my previous statement that I don't think it will be all that rare that people get their characters up to the High Council's ballpark power range. Using the guidelines presented in the book, it should take about as long as I've stated upthread. Using the higher ratings that people are discussing here, it will either take longer or faster power jumps than I tend to assume. Either way, people will reach that level relative to the HC in their game.