Author Topic: Policy Changes: How do you feel?  (Read 44627 times)

Offline Priscellie

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Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« on: June 21, 2010, 12:03:24 PM »
The forum has gone through a lot of changes lately, like a teenager or caterpillar.  Our goal is to stem the tide of unpleasantness that was choking the forum, making tempers flare and making the forum environment toxic.  We're requiring that folks communicate with a certain level of civility and courtesy, and we're cracking down a lot harder on the kinds of crass, deliberately goading behavior and subject matter that seemed to be the root of the problem.

It's become clear that a number of you are uncomfortable with the actions of some of the moderators, but are afraid to speak up.  That's not good.  We want to make this forum a place where you can enjoy yourself again, not where you're living in fear of the Wrath of Mod.

If you have any suggestions on how better to accomplish this, or if you feel paranoid to bring up any topic at all for fear it'll be labeled TT, LET US KNOW.  We thrive on your feedback.  Share your thoughts here, or PM the mods if you'd rather your words be kept private.  Snide remarks about the mods and admins without specific grievances will not be taken well.  Constructive criticism, however, is welcomed, even if we end up disagreeing with it.  We want folks to take an active interest in making this forum a better place.  When folks whisper behind our backs, we can't exactly do anything to anything to remedy the problem they're whispering about, can we?

So have at it!  How do you feel about the changes?

Offline Chiana

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 01:56:15 PM »
Change is scary but necessary and for the good.  I am getting used to the newness of the board and am liking the way it is set up.  I've found myself being able to navagate the different threads easier.  Overall, I say brilliant job!  And as I said over in Weird, thank you to the mods/admins/wardens who have put in a ton of work to make this forum a great place to be consumed by the sheer awesomeness that is Jim.   :)
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Offline Rue-Sal

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 03:43:02 PM »
First I'd like to apologize if my comments in Weird came across as snide as that was not my intent.  I was agreeing with a fellow forum member with regards to some of the threads being quiet compared to how they were before the change.  I do think that some of the members here feel like they will feel the wrath of mod if they say or do something that crosses the line.  The problem is knowing where that line is.

The second thing is that when I made my comment about criticizing the admins and mods I should have worded that better. I don't believe that admins or mods would ban somebody unreasonably but during the change when several people were banned there were accusations of favoritism in regards to who was banned and who wasn't. Somebody did state that he/she was banned after complaining about this.  Rather this is true or not, and for the record I don't believe it is, I think that somebody hearing this may be hesitant in voicing their concerns.

As for the changes themselves, I think the forum is headed in a better direction and is much less negative than it was just a month ago.  The chatroom is great and adding the new mods was a good idea.  I also think that the new expiration policy for threads in McAnally's will help keep things civil.  All in all I think you guys are doing a good job and have made a lot of positive steps.
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Offline Shecky

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 03:54:09 PM »
Let's all drag something out in the middle of the floor and let the cat sniff it: "the line". I've seen a lot of people make fairly similar comments about not knowing where the line is, but, honestly, it's pretty simple: if you completely remove your own personal knowledge behind what you're saying and look at your post without having ANY reason to ASSUME to the good in any case of doubt, the resulting context-free post should be just about impossible to get ticked off over. In other words, if it stands up for itself without even possibly needing "But I meant..." or "That's reading it wrong" and still doesn't step on toes, you're fine.

Yeah, it does sound all Big-Brothery, doesn't it? It isn't; this is a private forum. Keep in mind that this is Fred's toybox and we're all here by his consent and goodwill, and he wants this to be a civil place. Note that he didn't say it shouldn't be FUN, just not uncivil. There are plenty of ways to do friendly ribbing, joshin' around, poking fun, etc. and make sure that it's OBVIOUS that it's friendly. I know some people have a loathing for emoticon/smileys, but they're INCREDIBLY efficient and useful for just that kind of purpose. Especially for sarcasm, which is obviously highly prized around here... but exceptionally slick sarcasm is hard to discern in print, and we humans need every little bit of help we can get. :)
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Offline Rue-Sal

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 04:11:30 PM »
I'm not disagreeing with you in regards to the "cat sniff" test.  It's a good way to make sure that what's being said isn't going to upset or offend anybody.  And while I'm absolutely positive that you always review everything you post to make sure that it meets that standard ;) some others, such as myself, aren't in the habit of doing that and this is what I mean about walking around on eggshells.  Getting into the habit of reviewing a post to make sure it's toxin free is going to take a little time and until that happens I think some of the threads like Weird may seem a little quiet.

As for the forum being Fred's sandbox I respect that and have every intention of playing by the rules.  I shall not crap make a mess in Fred's sandbox.
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Offline svb1972

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 04:17:52 PM »
There have been a few times where I've seen the full might of the moderators fall on someone and I couldn't figure out why.

perhaps it was because the offending post was deleted or edited before I ever read it.  But sometimes it feels a little random.  That being said, I haven't really changed what I would or would not say on the forum.  Though I have done a better job of resisting Fist of Death.

I'm not so much worried about the Line.. I think for the most part the line is pretty clear.
Although Don't Mess with Texas seems to be a new by word on the forum :)


Offline odin

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 04:38:47 PM »
You know, I've been giving this forum and its changes a lot of thought recently.  I was thinking about it yesterday while driving down my street when I spied a police cruiser turn in right behind me.  I must admit, I immediately sat up in my chair, tried to remember if my tags were current, slowed a bit, and found my hands automatically reach for the ole ten and two.  Before I saw the officer, I was bee-bopping along, listening to music and draining a can of cola, carefree...and maybe just a bit careless.  Were we having more fun in forum, more carefree and bee boppy 6 months ago?  Yes. But some folks weren't paying near enough attention to warnings from mods, mods weren't giving habitual abusers a quick enough of a heave ho the hell outta here and things correspondingly went to hell.  Our once vibrant museum of smart, snarky delight has now had its walls covered in a yuck color of beigey restraint.  There has been a chilling effect.  Then again, maybe some folks needed to chill.  Folks used to have a bit more restraint round here, a natural balance could be felt.  That left somehow and those with little self control and a whole bucketful of bad intentions almost shut this place down for the more community-minded among us.  The whole damn ruckus makes me kind of sad.  Maybe we'll see a decrease in MOD cruisers in our neighborhoods when folks ease up a little with taking this whole fiction thing a bit too seriously and maybe then and only then, we'll be able to be-bop down the road once again.

Honestly, and with all due respect to mods and members alike,

O     

Offline Elanel

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 04:51:08 PM »
I have lurked more than posted on here. But I've seen some spectacular blowouts in some threads and even seen just how ridiculously far people are willing to go to prove that the mods here are the big bad. But I come at this from experience.

Owning my own web forum for many very loooong years now, I can sympathise with the approach the mods have had to take to bring the board past a period of instability around certain areas of the site. Forums morph into bigger entities over time. It's not a bad thing, especially where this site is concerned. More members, participation and ideas is a good representation of how well Jim's stories are being received by the masses. Unfortunately it can result in 'growing pains' for the site. You get the technical problems with servers unable to accommodate your resulting bandwidth needs and at the same time some of these new members arrive arguing religiously for their "Right to be right". It all results in a slow and unavoidable build up of pressure that let's itself be known sooner or later. It's quite interesting to see how this forum has evolved almost identically to how mine did, in terms of expanding the number of discussion forums and spreading things out for more fun & creativity. You put your members first all the time, but in doing so you effectively give yourself more places to moderate, more work to do and all so you can create a more harmonious atmosphere. It's hardly the act of people who want to stifle debate, in my opinion.

I try to maintain a level head with my site and remind people who tell me they have freedom of speech that it's a privately owned and operated site. Freedom of speech is not denied. I don't tell anyone they can't say something, I only remind people that there are limits and consequences, lines you should avoid crossing. But I'm no-one's parent or guardian. People know full well how they will be received when they start writing snarky, uninvited vitriol. Fine, I say. You made a choice and now I'll make mine, which is almost always a very dispassionate undertaking. The internet is the Wild West of our age and this website like many, many others is a growing township, founded by the Sheriff, with ever-evolving laws that help keep the town in order. As quickly as you check in, you can be checked out and that's how long you are remembered.

And here's the thing, moderators are assumed trigger-happy tools who employ their powers liberally and completely biased toward one side of the debate. Depending on how we judge an issue, we end up sitting in our zen of not being able to do anything right, whilst simultaneously not being able to do any wrong. It's difficult to convey our judgements to members, because you try to respect privacy where you can. You don't publicize what posts are reported for a reason, therefore it's impossible to show every instance where you've acted in the interests of the site, not in the interests of a clique. People will unfortunately form a very one-sided view of you, but you just have to maintain your approach and hope people get why you are doing this, even if they cannot agree with it.

It's a great website, here. Lots of good debates. Wish I had time to post more. The mods here do a great job and the fact they are willing to hear us out, to allow peoples voices to be heard if there are issues is better than a lot of places that would slam a door in your face and ban you for nothing more that suggesting a decision was wrong. No one is infallible, we all make mistakes, so the opportunity to be seen & heard is a vital one for any growing community.
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Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 05:20:20 PM »
There have been a few times where I've seen the full might of the moderators fall on someone and I couldn't figure out why.

perhaps it was because the offending post was deleted or edited before I ever read it.  But sometimes it feels a little random.  That being said, I haven't really changed what I would or would not say on the forum.  Though I have done a better job of resisting Fist of Death.

I'm not so much worried about the Line.. I think for the most part the line is pretty clear.
Although Don't Mess with Texas seems to be a new by word on the forum :)

Frequently there will be a pattern of behavior on different areas of the forum.  An out of line crack on the thread dedicated to ham worship, an out of line remark on a spoiler section dedicated to how the Accords regulate Harry's sock drawer, etc, and a week before that an out of line comment on yet another thread.  The issues can occur all over the place where no individual member of mod might spot the matter, but we pull things together and compare notes.  We don't just look at a single poster's behavior in one section or on one topic, but their overall activity.  Eventually someone gets the "we've asked nice, the boy just don't get it" award.  It might seem like a random banhammer for one comment, but it's often something the person's been working towards for a while. 

Also, sometimes it can be just a case someone reverting to old behaviour they've been "corrected" on in the past.  A single infraction can win a vacation if it's bad enough, or occurs after the Enough of This Bullshit Lamp has been lit because of similar infractions of the same sort.

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 05:26:05 PM »
I kind of regret that the way things were set up before didn't work out; there were debates in TT that I really enjoyed, both for the joy of reasoned argument and for being enlightening and informative and helping me refine some of my own positions.  That said, I'm very aware of it being Fred's forum, and of Jim's expressed preferences, and not at all meaning to push on that. Just a bit wistful.

Wrt the on-topic parts of the forum, I'm well aware that the level of analysis and speculation I most enjoy is not something everyone enjoys - IIRC one of the motives for starting the Book Club forum in the first place was people wanting to have discussions not doing that.  And there have been a couple of times where that intensity of focus has read to other posters as antagonistic; which is very much not my intent, and for which I have apologised when I have realised it was being read that way. 

So in terms of telling where "the line" is, it's not always clear to me where the distinction will be perceived between engaging with an argument in detail in order to test the consequences of a new idea and see where it fits with other things we know about the DV, and what will be seen as antagonistic nitpicking.  Or rather, to me personally, the more time, energy and focus someone puts into giving an idea of mine a thorough workout, the more I feel that person is showing me respect, however vehemently they may disagree with me. If I, as Shecky suggested, completely remove my personal knowledge of the other poster, that is how one takes an idea seriously.  And there does seem to me a qualitative distinction between that and, say, calling someone who disagrees with you an imbecile.
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Offline Curly

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 06:46:01 PM »
So have at it!  How do you feel about the changes?

I'm disappointed that the mods felt that Touchy Topics was untenable. I enjoyed the banter and the exchange of viewpoints that the board allowed, and I enjoyed the relaxed atmosphere that I felt was given to Touchy Topics by the rest of the forum. I understand the problems involved but I disagree with the solution provided.

I feel slightly nervous about posting now because, although I haven't to my knowledge received a moderator spanking, I feel that my efforts to remain polite may not come across very well, and could easily go unrecognised, when I respond to interpretations of my viewpoints.


As I've said, I don't remember having been reprimanded before and so think that I  do not come across as aggressive or insensitive, so I would like to suggest that there are perhaps some posters that are overly sensitive, venture intimate details of their life, open themselves up to criticism that they would rather not receive and then complain about the "treatment" they receive.

I recognise that aggressive and insensitive posters cannot be allowed to bring down the good humour and fun atmosphere of the forum, but I'd like to point out that those who cannot cope with differing opinions on their life choices should also be encouraged to abstain from posting their private distresses, quibbles, philosophies etc if they simply want a chorus of "Seconded"s and "I bow to your touching anecdote"s.

I'm not sure if there's a nice latin phrase for what seems to me like "reverse ad hominem attacks", but it definitely seems like stabbing yourself to shame others into surrender is becoming a favorite tactic for ending a conversation, as it generally sucks the fun out of a conversation just as effectively as diving into another's personal life, but without the effect of being considered a "guilty party".

I like the boards as much as any child in Disneyland, but at some point you have to get away from Mickey, go somewhere less noisy with a glass of wine and some adult conversation. It'd be convenient if that place was in close proximity, but I understand if you don't want it in the park.
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Offline Warden John Marcone

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 07:42:00 PM »
This is what I had to say:

I'll just stick my two cents into the quiet discussion.  I got slapped by the banhammer's softie baby brother the banruler.  I know WHY I got slapped by the banruler (or at least I suspect what got me put in the group of banee's).  I will henceforth avoid such behaviors so as to avoid banruler passing me off to tough guy big bro.  That doesn't mean I'm going to say nothing or tip-toe on eggshells.  That means I'm going to embrace the new regime and find just as many ways as possible to party in Moscow, jump on the beds in Milan, run on the grass fields in Kansas, race through the sand on dunebuggies in the Sahara, claim I've been to Hell and back (It gets HOT in the Caymans)_and just have as much FUN as possible, all while looking exceptionally stylish in my $5000 suits and making a huge profit running my LOLcat Criminal Empire in the wacky fun world we call the Jum Botcher Biards.  And I reserve teh right to keep any typos I make while on a soapbox tangent and mangle words almost beyond recognition and expect at least two comments on just how badly I messed up Jim Butcher Boards.  Just because we can't spill blood doesn't mean we can't have fun.

*steps off soapbox and leaps up wall to mouth of volcano, snags rope ladder and flies away in a helecopter to wherever I decide to stop in the world*

I'll admit that every once in a while I slip, such as my comment in the World Cup thread (since changed).  Rather than get slapped down for it, I was politely asked to revise it.  I like how the changes are working.
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Offline Amber

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 10:54:38 PM »
I like the structure of the boards now.  The compartmentalized topics make it very easy to pick through the types of things that I like to read, and the types of things that I don't.

The modding has seemed kind of random to me for a long time, so I just avoid contributing anything substantive to the boards.
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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 11:30:02 PM »

I feel that the current, revised moderation policy leaves large loopholes for thinly veiled personal jabs to slip through, and doesn't do much to address QSRI.

Furthermore,  dubious posting gambits, including strawman arguments, including arguments from personal incredulity, including arguments from ignorance, including arguments of verbosity  and red herrings, are still win buttons.

Therefore, while I understand the goal and while I respect the work being done by the mods,  I feel that the current forum structure  is still  just as unstable in itself as the last version was.


Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2010, 11:40:04 PM »
Simple fact is, we will never be able to police everything.  There aren't enough of us to be the Debate Procedural Fact Police in every occassion.  So we focus on the worst case behavior, and address issues as people bring them to us.  Rudeness, disrespectful and offensive behaviour, etc. 

Sometimes, a body just plain doesn't like how another body argues.  Sometimes we just don't like the cut of their jib.  "Alpha Fox 6, Do NOT engage!  Repeat, do NOT engage!"  If somebody's being rude, disrespectful, report them.  But if someone just gets on your nerves because you feel their approach to a debate is improper, then don't try to win a pissing contest with a skunk.  Now, if that skunk follows you all around the damn place and is clearly acting like Max Cady in Cape Fear, jumping on everything you say... then you could have an issue to bring us.