Author Topic: Considering some Evocation house rules  (Read 12062 times)

Offline Victim

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
Considering some Evocation house rules
« on: June 12, 2010, 02:42:01 AM »
So after more than ten sessions of our Big Easy game (run by, and written up here by mroehler - go check it out) it's becoming increasingly clear that Evocation attacks are more effective than an equivalent refresh of other abilities.

Why?  Because Evocation attacks are the most accurate - which then turns into damage.  Sure, evocations can have big weapon values, but a lot of powers offer bonuses to damage.  The real difference: most attack forms max out at around the skill cap, plus 1 or so.  The sword of the cross adds 1 to Weapon attacks, the vampire powers can +1 situationally, a stunt can add another +1 in the right conditions.  Not too many examples there (Target Rich Environment is the only stunt in Your Story that adds to attack).  OTOH, with Refinement, an evoker can grab up to twice the skill cap in bonuses from powers.  Granted, that's a pretty extreme example (kind of like the Red Court Infected + Knight of the Cross + DIY sword master stunt).

More reasonably, we can look at what a character in our game has: Evocation, with 2 points of Refinement: 1 for specializations, and one for a bigger focus item.  So that's +4 Offensive Control on a focus, and then +2 Control, +1 Power from specializations in the caster's favored element - basically, +6 attack, +1 damage, for -5 refresh.  -5 Refresh can also get you a plain old +6 damage (claws, Supernatural Strength).  This isn't exactly the most expensive ability.  Our character has a skill cap of 5, so he's throwing 6 Power, 10 Control air evocations with his starting skill selection (it's actually 6, 11 now since he increased his Discipline). 

Let's take a look at how that stacks up to some monsters.

The Black Court Master Vampire defends at 4, and packs 8 stress with 2 Armor from its Supernatural Toughness.  With +0 rolls, it gets hit by 6, so the spell does 10 damage after armor.  That's bigger than its stress track, so it must take a consequence after every shot.  Ouch.  Even if the caster isn't overchanneling - which is free, since 4 one stress hits are equivalent to hits of 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 (in any order) - he can deal out enough damage to essentially skip the stress track entirely.  Moreover, without a 7 point difference in rolls, the attack WILL hit.

How about Ursiel?  With only a Good Defense in ranged combat, he gets hit by 7 for 11 damage after armor.  So he's immediately in consequences as well.

Looking through other monsters, even a Fantastic defense roll is pretty freaking rare.  So even with a more balanced spread on a focus item (say, +2 Control instead of 4), these attacks essentially don't miss.  This situation isn't really surprising: powers seem to add far more damage or toughness than they do to accuracy or defense.  Mythic Speed at -6 is +3 versus ranged (and a near autowin against melee); Refinement can be +2 attack per -1.  Who needs maneuvers to hit for serious damage? 

With a bit of overchanneling, a tag on the consequences from the first shot, and a bit of luck, it's not unreasonable to put down some badass, Supernaturally Tough enemies who are willing to take serious consequences in 2 shots.  At the same time, the most effective single target attacker can also be the most effective area attacker with whole zone evocations - people with Grenades don't have a 10 in Weapons, and can't decide to include an even bigger area when needed.

Sure, an evoker only has a few shots without seriously hurting himself (we can assume someone interested in serious evocation has at least Good Conviction for 4 mental stress, and may have 5 for an extra mental consequence), but it doesn't take all that many when you do lots of damage and nothing can dodge. 
------------------------------------------------------------------

So that's been the problem as its appeared in our game a few times.

1: We think that the crux of the solution should be that the attack roll for a spell should be made with Discipline only.  Control bonuses help to control the power of the spell, but don't apply for comparing to the target's defense.  It's still just one roll, with Control bonuses being subtracted out.

Since attack value is a skill, it's essentially going to be in roughly the same range for combat focused wizards as other combat focused characters - the evoker can do a lot of damage, but they don't have a special advantage when attacking.  Maneuvers are still important in terms of landing a hit, and not just if you're trying to avoid an attack that would otherwise kill a mortal.

With that change, a mage's juice doesn't go nearly so far since they can't reasonably expect to hit some guy for like 12 damage, more spells will be wasted shots, they may have to use magical maneuvers to make sure they can land a hit, etc.  That kind of seems like a serious problem - being a guy who can throw out 4 or so 7 damage attacks (which isn't so unreasonable) would kind of suck compared to being a guy who has unlimited attacks at Weapon 6.  And Control just took significant hit to its utility relative to power (not that Power > Control is an especially safe place to be :) ).  That leads us to idea #2:

2: Spin on the Control roll reduces the mental stress dealt by the spell, at the standard rate of 3 extra successes reducing stress by 1.

A high control caster can get significantly more attacks at baseline levels of power.  Maneuvers, especially to apply scene aspects, don't require too much power, so there's a reasonable chance they'll be free (except for the action cost, obviously).

Even better, overchanneling to get extra power at the expense of more mental stress is no longer free.  If you already have 1 stress, then a 2 stress hit hurts just as much a 1 stress hit (without armor).  OTOH, with a chance to cast a spell at reduced stress, a caster might be able to avoid taking stress with normal spells, but even a spell with Spin at Conviction +1 would deal mental damage.

Of course, these changes are slightly more complicated than the base rules.  There's an additional calculation for an evocation attack.  We don't use Spin normally, so that's another complication. 

We also couldn't come up with a great way to deal with high power blocks.  Just like an evocation attack could have a huge accuracy, an evocation block can have a big defense value - one that significantly exceeds other characters' attacks.  Before, these defenses could be breached by high accuracy evocations, leaving the turtle mage vulnerable to other attacks until he could recast the shield (and a shield can be a significant investment).  With our house rules, not so much.  It seems like the only real countermeasure would be stacked maneuvers and declarations.  Our group couldn't actually think of a great way to deal with a mighty shield - maybe eroding the block ala attacking a threshold?  However, no character in our game going that route.  Also, a character who gives up a lot of active abilities to be nearly invincible seemed like less of a problem in a group than the person who can potentially blow through an encounter in an action or two.

So, thoughts?

Offline KOFFEYKID

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 776
  • Im BLEEDING Caffeine!
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 02:58:26 AM »
I dont know if thats needed, I mean, Generally, if a wizard is fighting a baddy, the baddy is going to have 6 physical stress boxes and consequences. Thats a huge advantage over the poor wizard who at most is going to have 4 physical stress boxes. Your average ghoul is going to fill the wizards highest stress box on a near miss, where it just meets the wizards defense roll. Thats pretty serious stuff. If the wizard fails by one or more on the defense roll, he is going to have to take a consequence, No doubt about it. And thats only a ghoul. They are a Refresh -6 monster. A refresh 12 monster like a Uber ghoul? This guy is running around with a weapon 6! Even if the wizard roll a defense at exactly what the ghoul rolls for attack he is forced to fill his largest stress box and take a consequence.

Sure, Wizards have the big nasty spells, but monsters, in general, have the more physical stress bars and can pretty much incapacitate a wizard in one hit unless they take a consequence.

Another thing to consider, are you guys giving your baddies fate points and letting them use it on defense and attack rolls? I find that will even the playing field between a wizard and a supernat monster pretty damned quickly. Use it to reroll those less than stellar rolls, or add a +2 when it is the safer option. They'll start becoming much more of a threat.

lets move on to a refresh -14 critter, the black court vampire. This guy has 7 physical stress bars and armor 2! hot Dayum, That means vs a 5 shift evocation effect rolled with a discipline/control of +5. If the wizard rolls +4 the vamp will fill his highest stress box if he rolls a total of +0. Thats pretty tough. And he is still throwing around Weapon:4 claws, 5 if the wizard is bleeding.

It just seems to me that throwing the right kind of stuff at a wizard is going to nuke him pretty fast, regardless of how powerful their evocations are. Its a pretty fair trade.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 03:00:05 AM by KOFFEYKID »

Offline Archmage_Cowl

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 521
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2010, 03:00:32 AM »
i delt with something similar to this and honestly their isnt a completely right answer in my opinion. We just left it like this saying "hey they are freaking wizards they should be dangerous".

One thing we did house rule (sorta related) is that speed powers give whatever bonus they would give to athletics to dodge on attacks (as it seems being faster would definately help you hit better with guns, weapons, fists, and well almost anything really). So after playing two or three dozen sessions with this house rule i can tell you that it does seem to make the high hit most wizards have reasonably less important seeming as most fast monsters can pull out hits just as nice. (and honestly it seems to fit while not being broken or anything)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 03:13:16 AM by Archmage_Cowl »
"I who stand in the full light of the heavens, command thee, who opens the gates to hell. Come forth Divine Lightning! This ends now! Indignation!" Jade Curtis Tales of the abyss

Offline GoldenH

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2010, 03:17:14 AM »
Sounds like your wizards are Being Prepared. Let the other characters be prepared too, by building up aspects they can tag and bringing along equipment.

Yes, Spellcasters in DFRPG are going to be more buff than other characters with the same Refresh. This is explained by noting that their stunts are supposed to stack, while others that can be stacked are nerfed in the expectation that they will be. If you don't like it (because Stress isn't being a limiting factor) you'll need to adjust non-spellcasting stunts up, or spellcasting stunts down.

You could also try giving an additional +2 Refresh to all non-spellcasting templates.

Offline Bubba Amon Hotep

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2010, 04:03:50 AM »
Sounds like your wizards are Being Prepared.

You said a mouthful right there.  Lets think about that.  Prepared.  Harry in the books gets his butt handed to him all the time, and barely makes it out of most situations.  He isn't prepared. 

When Harry is prepared he can
(click to show/hide)
and
(click to show/hide)
all while killing and laying low other threats.

Try to keep your players off balance, have them attempt to do things other than fight in combat, etc.  Keep them off guard and only let them prepare towards the end once they have things figured out.  It will make the roller coaster ride that much tense and they will love you for it.

Offline Victim

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2010, 04:36:07 AM »
I dont know if thats needed, I mean, Generally, if a wizard is fighting a baddy, the baddy is going to have 6 physical stress boxes and consequences. Thats a huge advantage over the poor wizard who at most is going to have 4 physical stress boxes.

Not really.  Most enemies, according to the rules, don't take their full assortment of consequences.  And a mild consequence recovers pretty easily.

Moreover, all PCs without toughness powers are in pretty much the same boat defensively.  However, those characters probably can't create Fantastic+ blocks, or have enchanted items to back up their defense.  For example, the WCV template is also pretty expensive and lacks toughness.  Werewolves don't have toughness or recovery.  

Spending an equivalent value of refresh on non-evocation attacks (for example, Strength powers) won't do any more to counter the ghoul's tendency to maim people.  But it will deal less damage (6-7 damage, 5 attack) compared to the wizard's counterattack (6 damage, 10 attack).  It's not like I'm comparing a guy with a bunch of combat focused powers and skills to a character lacking in those areas.

Plus, you're kind of helping my point: if many characters can't go toe to toe with ghouls for very long in the first place, then the mental damage cost of an evocation isn't going to be huge issue.  The fight can be over, one way or the other, before that restriction acts as a limiting factor.

I mean, I never said that taking Evocation made you invincible.  I said that it gives you a better offense than other Supernatural abilities.

It's kind of cheap to call normal ghouls only 6 refresh.  They have a lot of high combat skills.  In a straight up fight, they're going to be more dangerous than the standard RCV (worth almost twice as much).

Prepared...  In our biggest fight so far, the wizard forgot his focus item.  He got ambushed by an RCV noble with Supernatural Toughness.  His two shots of lightning counted a lot more than her attacks. :) He wasn't exactly running in there with a stack full of Assessments from advance planning - if you invest a lot in throwing power around, it can work pretty well even if you're not prepared in advance.  Also, it's tons easier to be prepared when your main weapons aren't obvious, illegal, and traceable - like the explosives and assault weaponry some people have.


Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2010, 05:01:05 AM »
Are your NPCs burning Fate Points on dodging? Because with even a few of those they can dodge an Evocation attack or two, and your non-mook enemies should really have at least a few Fate Points. And that's one of maybe 5 Evocations the Wizard gets for the entire combat. And any non-mooks should be able to take a hit or so with a Mild and a Moderate Consequence...which is what I give my mid-level badass critters.

And while the Evocation user in my game is only a 5 shift spellcaster and thus I can't legitimately use him as a good example of how powerful such things can be, I can use him as an example of how Spellcaster endurance works, and the Mental Stress limitation on Evocation has absolutely applied in something like three out of four fights he's been in, so it's a legitimate drawback IME.



I honestly think this is just a case of the most powerful PC in a particular group (which there's always one of) resulting in the appearance of imbalance. I mean, going by my game, someone with Inhuman in all the physical enhancement powers, Claws, and maxed Athletics and Fists would look like it completely outclassed any of the other options, but that's an illusion based on my particular group.

Offline Saedar

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 05:09:58 AM »
This is kinda where I am in my game. I play a werebear with Claws, Inhuman Strength and Superb Fists.

In a fight against some goblins, I smacked one around for something like 10-11 stress in a single hit. Same fight, our gun-nut Pure Mortal placed a couple maneuvers and ended up nailing another goblin for 10-11 stress. The two practioners in our group didn't do so well. They were effective but didn't approach either my combat ability or my compatriot.

It's all about the situation.

Offline KOFFEYKID

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 776
  • Im BLEEDING Caffeine!
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2010, 05:56:53 AM »
Right now Im playing in 3 Dresden games, two as spellcasters and one as a red court vampire (full template, and she managed to keep her soul through a death curse, yes, it is very much like angel, but I wanted to play a damned vamp!)

My vampire has the full inhuman suite of powers, and claws. She has Superb Discipline, Stealth at 4 (6 with cloak of shadows), fists at 4 and might at 4 (5 with Inhuman Strength).

She is really bad ass, Im generally leading in with a stealth attack (ambush), laying a consequence on somebody, tagging it for a grapple, where I burn some fate points and set up at least a 7 or 8 strength block on any of the enemies actions. Then I lay start to feed. Oh yeah, here is where I do a block each round and start giving him physical stress (3 guaranteed each round, 4 if I've hurt him, which in the example I have), I tag the new consequences I put on him as necessary, fate points if I need it, and once I've killed my opponent I take advantage of my Taste of Death portion of Blood Drinker. Clear all my stress tracks and heal a mild and moderate wound.

I basically disabled an opponent from the get go and dealt damage each round. Thats nothing to sneeze at and I'm not a spellcaster.

Another player in the party is playing a norse god of rock. He has an Axe item of power, His weapons are ranked at 4 and he is swinging a weapon: 8 around with supernatural strength. He also has the berserker stunt bringing his weapons to 5 and the axe he uses to weapon: 9. Then he starts invoking his aspects. It gets pretty damned nasty from there. Oh, and his alertness is higher than mine is for initiative, he ranks in at a nice 8.

Compare that to my spellcaster in the chest deep game. His name is Timothy Hargrove, and so far, Hes killed a ogre in one hit, then basically got geeked, barely survived the fight while the werelion in the group fought another ogre to a standstill, and the face killed two people, and intimidated the other two away. Basically Tim got one pretty bad ass moment of glory before everybody was like "Geek the Freakin Mage, he just threw a eight rebar spears at our ogre!" On the other hand, before that my wizard was pinned down by a bunch of refresh -3 thugs with automatics. Why? I cant use magic to kill mortals, I had to be very careful with those guys!

Thats really one of the ways to piss in the wizard's cereal, throw pure mortals at him, and make sure he is aware of the first law consequence. Other people can deal with mortals just fine, wizards? They might have some difficulties.

My warden in a submerged game hasn't really gotten a chance to really get into some nitty gritty combat. So far hes helped take down an ogre by shanking him in the kidney with his silvered dagger, and he took down a blampire by tagging two aspects placed by other players and using his sword conjured from pure soulfire. (Skill at Weapons 4, Sword at Weapon: 3, it ignores one rank of toughness abilities, and satisfies the Holy catch).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 06:19:10 AM by KOFFEYKID »

Offline Viatos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 177
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2010, 10:05:15 AM »
-snip-

I agree with the OP here. In the same game as the RCV and the rock god, my poorly-designed half-Outsider with Evocation can toss around Epic rotes as a non-issue - he is at least as proficient in combat as the rock god (little less raw power but he makes up for it with zone attacks and zone maneuvers) and more so then the RCV (one of his rotes grapples; it's not nearly as good as her grapple, of course, but he can follow it up with Weapon:8 attacks). He also has Superb social skills from Marked By Power, and an alternate form with Beast Change, Claws, Spider Walk, Aquatic, and Supernatural Recovery that allow him to deal with practically any eventuality short of death and get through it. He has all this versatility and is STILL a major combat heavyweight, and it's all thanks to the -4 spent on Evocation and a single Refinement. Dropping Evocation to Water Channeling (which I should have done originally) would change nothing, since focus items would keep his offensive bonuses almost exactly the same and he can afford to take consequences with Supernatural Recovery. He'd just lose Air and Earth magic, which barely matter to him as it is.

Magic needs a little reworking, and I think Victim's idea of dumping control bonuses to attack is a very good one.

Offline Papa Gruff

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 536
  • in omnia paratus!
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2010, 10:34:59 AM »
Evocations are absolutely the most powerful thing that we have encountered in our game so fare. The full blown wizard in my group can seriously dish it out. He is a bit min/maxed with both discipline and conviction at superb plus a focus. However he has a serious drawback. He can dish it out for about four exchanges.

The other PC we have is a scion of a Norse god. He has superhuman toughness, and recovery + strength at inhuman, plus pretty high weapons skills too.

Before the last session we had, we decided to let both characters duel just for the heck of it. Both PC have the same base refresh. The scion has a couple more fate points to spend. As it turned out the wizard had a LOT of trouble bringing down the scion. Mostly because he is good in the short fight, while the scion can go on and on and on without even breaking a sweat. I'm not saying, that the scion was stronger then the wizard. It was a more or less balanced fight.

That said I don't feel that evocators are OP. House rules don't seem necessary. What I have learned is simply to produce appropriate opposition in the future to get interesting fights...

An other thing: Don't forget that there usually is a huge downside on characters that are powerful in combat. They tend to have a skill build that leaves them very vulnerable in other types of conflicts. In the past several sessions I had a lot of fun by confronting my players with skilled social combatants and situations where the combat skills wouldn't help them much. And oh my god did my NPC own them. What I'm trying to say is, that you can hinder your PC in other ways then just normal combat. Do it. Social Conflicts are more fun then I would have thought.
in omnia peratus! ... wait a minute! ... to give anybody a rucksack? ... DAMN CORRESPONDENCE COURSE!

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2010, 11:38:46 AM »
Evocations are powerful, yes. However, a wizard;

1) Almost always loses initiative vs anything with Speed powers. He gets grappled. He is then taken out.
2) Almost never notices something with Stealth 6 (anything with cloak of shadows and a great stealth) so he gets ambushed. He gets grappled. He is then taken out.
3) Orges are immune to Mortal Magic.
4) Against a submerged wizard, A Tentacled Horror (or anything else with Mythic Toughness) usually needs 3-4 hits to take out. After the first hit, you can bet the wizard will be grappled.
5) Faeries with glamours vs perception can surprise a wizard. Faeries with Faerie Magic can strike back at him.
6) Mental Attacks are bad for wizards. Especially if they are ranged and they are Weapon 4
7) 9-10 mortal thugs at -1 refresh each with guns or baseball bats. He can't use lethal magic unless he wants or has lawbreaker. And he needs 10 spells which he doesn't have.

Offline luminos

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1234
  • Um... Hello?
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2010, 12:27:24 PM »
This is going to be a bit of a rant.

A wizard, spending nine points in refresh to optimize has combat capabilities, will be able to outshine any non-wizard PC spending nine points of refresh to optimize combat abilities, and still be able to do all kinds of things that the non-wizard couldn't even attempt.  This isn't to complain, and the source material supports the idea of magic users being at the top of the power rankings when it comes to mortals, but it is a fact that a min-maxed spellcaster can outshine every other type of PC, even at things those PC's are specifically designed for.  Perhaps the biggest part of the problem is that it is casually easy for a spellcaster to get bonuses to hit.  If someone wants to house rule that these to hit bonuses don't work that way, I have no problem with it. 

Of course, it's the GM's job to make situations complicated enough that a wizard can't just bulldoze his way through it, so making the game about more than just killing the biggest demons will mitigate these concerns enormously.

Evocations are powerful, yes. However, a wizard;

1) Almost always loses initiative vs anything with Speed powers. He gets grappled. He is then taken out.
2) Almost never notices something with Stealth 6 (anything with cloak of shadows and a great stealth) so he gets ambushed. He gets grappled. He is then taken out.
3) Orges are immune to Mortal Magic.
4) Against a submerged wizard, A Tentacled Horror (or anything else with Mythic Toughness) usually needs 3-4 hits to take out. After the first hit, you can bet the wizard will be grappled.
5) Faeries with glamours vs perception can surprise a wizard. Faeries with Faerie Magic can strike back at him.
6) Mental Attacks are bad for wizards. Especially if they are ranged and they are Weapon 4
7) 9-10 mortal thugs at -1 refresh each with guns or baseball bats. He can't use lethal magic unless he wants or has lawbreaker. And he needs 10 spells which he doesn't have.

1)  This applies to anyone who doesn't have speed powers themselves, not just wizards
2)  This applies to every available PC
3)  So, there is one monster specifically designed to give wizards a hard time.
4)  Against a tentacled horror, you can bet that it will take non-wizards a hell of a lot longer than just 3-4 hits. 
5)  Applies to non-wizards as well.  At least wizards have enchanted items that can make blocks to stop hits from opposing magic.
6)  Ah, yes, the wizards kryptonite.  So their is one type of threat that a wizard will have trouble against, and everything else, he is good against.  Whereas with almost every other template, there is one type of threat that the character can be min/maxed to do good against, and every other kind of threat will give him trouble, or the character will be balanced and he won't excel against anything and still have trouble from some threats.
7)  This is actually a good point.  However, there is a strong prevailing attitude that wizards should never be forced to deal with the consequences of killing someone unless the PC decides that he wants the opponent to be dead instead of just unconscious.

Once again, I'm not complaining about it.  I'm just pointing out that the "drawbacks" that wizards face are things that most other PC's won't have any advantage over.  Whether or not this is a problem is something that will largely depend on how a group approaches the game.  If that approach is a combat heavy numbers oriented one, then wizards should be pruned down a bit.  If the approach is a narrative one, focused on character interaction and problem solving with combat thrown in to heighten the tension, powerful wizards can work out.
Lawful Chaotic

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2010, 01:03:37 PM »
If a wizard is optimising in the group, let the other PCs optimise too:

A ranged attacker with skill of 5, true aim, target-rich environment, dual wielding and shot on the run or equivalent is refresh -4 and has Epic attack and Defense most of the fights. He has Weapon 5 with Desert Eagles. Agaist someone with Athletics 3, he does stress 9 hits. Against athletics 5, he does stress 7 hits. And he still has 3 stress he can use to match the basic wizard.

Offline KOFFEYKID

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 776
  • Im BLEEDING Caffeine!
    • View Profile
Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2010, 06:05:07 PM »
I agree with the OP here. In the same game as the RCV and the rock god, my poorly-designed half-Outsider with Evocation can toss around Epic rotes as a non-issue - he is at least as proficient in combat as the rock god (little less raw power but he makes up for it with zone attacks and zone maneuvers) and more so then the RCV (one of his rotes grapples; it's not nearly as good as her grapple, of course, but he can follow it up with Weapon:8 attacks). He also has Superb social skills from Marked By Power, and an alternate form with Beast Change, Claws, Spider Walk, Aquatic, and Supernatural Recovery that allow him to deal with practically any eventuality short of death and get through it. He has all this versatility and is STILL a major combat heavyweight, and it's all thanks to the -4 spent on Evocation and a single Refinement. Dropping Evocation to Water Channeling (which I should have done originally) would change nothing, since focus items would keep his offensive bonuses almost exactly the same and he can afford to take consequences with Supernatural Recovery. He'd just lose Air and Earth magic, which barely matter to him as it is.

Magic needs a little reworking, and I think Victim's idea of dumping control bonuses to attack is a very good one.

True, but remember, my character can take all of a 3 Mild consequences, two moderates, a severe and an extreme in one scene, given the appropriate circumstances, and your grapple is dispellable, and will almost always be a less powerful block than mine. I've looked at your character, and while you are very strong offensively, you are very weak defensively. Zeke is running around with a 2 alertness, and 1 in Lore. Hes almost always going to be the bottom of the barrel for initiative, and his +3 athletics isn't going to stop many bad guys from eating his face.

@ Luminos: Throw some white court vamps with the full suite of incite emotions upgrades. That wizard is going to be pretty screwed pretty quick. Mental Stress for a wizard is really nasty. Throw some red court vampires at him and have them attack with addictive saliva, same story.

1)  This applies to anyone who doesn't have speed powers themselves, not just wizards

Yes, but there are lots of PC templates that have speed powers, which is probably intentional.

2)  This applies to every available PC

Except where you bring in those templates that have inhuman strength and pcs that have a decent rank in the might skill (which a wizard probably wont because he needs every skill for other stuff)

3)  So, there is one monster specifically designed to give wizards a hard time.

And then there are white court vamps with ranged mental attacks, red court vamps with addictive saliva, black court vamps with domination, and a bunch of other bad nasties to take into account. There are allot of ways to scare a wizard pretty badly.

4)  Against a tentacled horror, you can bet that it will take non-wizards a hell of a lot longer than just 3-4 hits.

True, but Non Wizards are more likely to survive the retaliation from such a creature.
 
5)  Applies to non-wizards as well.  At least wizards have enchanted items that can make blocks to stop hits from opposing magic.

Its pretty difficult to pull out anything more than a +5 block in a magic item with any reasonable number of uses per session. A challenging spellcaster, like so many have mentioned, will be throwing attacks with allot more than +5 accuracy around.

6)  Ah, yes, the wizards kryptonite.  So their is one type of threat that a wizard will have trouble against, and everything else, he is good against.  Whereas with almost every other template, there is one type of threat that the character can be min/maxed to do good against, and every other kind of threat will give him trouble, or the character will be balanced and he won't excel against anything and still have trouble from some threats.

Umm, no? A wizard is very vulnerable to mental attacks, yes, but he is still just as vulnerable to being eviscerated as everybody else. Most wizards taking a hit are going to fill their highest stress box and take a mild consequence to keep from getting taken out, like I pointed out above. Wizard's however dont have access to toughness powers, which means that in a group with other supernaturals, a wizard is going to be more vulnerable to physical attacks than any bruiser, and more vulnerable to mental attacks than everybody else in general.

7)  This is actually a good point.  However, there is a strong prevailing attitude that wizards should never be forced to deal with the consequences of killing someone unless the PC decides that he wants the opponent to be dead instead of just unconscious.

Who says the bad guys have to be -1 refresh mooks. Throw a wizard against a 9 refresh pure mortal? Thats gonna be a tough fight.