Author Topic: balance of sympathies  (Read 7413 times)

Offline Shecky

  • Bartender
  • O. M. G.
  • ****
  • Posts: 34672
  • Feh.
    • View Profile
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2010, 02:43:39 PM »
I think Watchmen is actually doing something more complicated than that polarity, by a long shot.

I see four moral poles in Watchmen; the Comedian at "nothing really matters so do whatever the hell you like" moral nihilism, Dr. Manhattan at "nothing can be changed so just hang around brooding" existential nihilism, Rorschach at a spurious moral absolutism which pretty much always boils down in practice to "let's go hurt people we think are scum until by chance alone we find a clue", and Ozymandias at pragmatism, which to my mind the text demonstrates as capable of outmatching each of those other poles.

Certainly. Although even expanding to four is an oversimplification; the underlying psychological influences motivating and governing each character are multifaceted, and the "bad" isn't necessarily as bad as it's made out to be, while the "good" is equally not entirely as it would be portrayed (e.g., Rorschach DID do a lot of good despite being reprehensible in many ways, Dr. Manhattan DID help a lot despite being aloof and disconnected and uncaring in most ways, Veidt was in many important aspects purely out for his own advancement to the detriment of others, etc.). The key is that EACH of them had something for everyone to like and something for everyone to dislike... just like people.
Official forum rules and precepts; please read: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.0.html

Quote from: Stanton Infeld
Well, if you couldn't do that with your bulls***, Leonard, I suspect the lad's impervious.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2010, 04:13:40 PM »
Every one is the hero in their own story.

I very much don't believe this, because of the small number of truly malevolent real people I have met, the majority saw themselves as villains and took pride in it.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

meh

  • Guest
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2010, 05:12:00 PM »
Ideally, I would want characters on either side of the central conflict, as close to equally sympathetic as possible.  I am not particularly interested in the story having a hero or a villain, let alone a hero defeating a villain; it's a complex issue where I want to explore questions rather than throw out simple answers.

*goes to hunt down his copy of Schismatrix*

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 06:25:57 PM »
*goes to hunt down his copy of Schismatrix*

Now that setting is a good example, particularly "Twenty Evocations".
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Der Sturmbrecher

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 366
    • View Profile
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2010, 09:54:35 PM »
I'm new to the writing craft, but am also an avid reader. Hopefully you get something out of this.

The movie The Prestige. Excellent film. If you haven't seen it, see it. If you have, skip to next paragraph.
(click to show/hide)

Despite his flaws, I continuous found myself favoring Jackman's character. Likely cause? Reader's sympathy was well established at the beginning with the loss of his wife. Maybe I also just preferred his performance.

The beginning of the story favors Jackman's point of view as well. You never doubt that the story is about both, but you see a little more from Jackman's eyes. This stacks up with previous posters' advice that I saw.

Alternatively, you could go the direction The Dark Knight did. The Joker was a completely despicable character in terms of moral make-up, but it also made him fascinating, and easily my favorite character in the movie. One way to go might be to make one of your characters someone who the readers are drawn to in spite of rather than because of themselves, and have the other be palatable and entertaining.  Unlikely given your plot description, but possible.
Inevitably,  readers will pick sides. One way you can keep the balance a little is to keep them guessing, like Rowling did with Snape. I love Snape as a character, and am glad he turned out good. But I also would have loved it had he been the Machiavellan villain I’d heard one theory call him, topping even Voldy and being the real antagonist. If you change the circumstances surrounding your characters, it’ll keep them wondering who’s going to do what.

Hope you get something good out of this, and good chance to you!

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2010, 10:24:22 PM »
Inevitably,  readers will pick sides. One way you can keep the balance a little is to keep them guessing, like Rowling did with Snape. I love Snape as a character, and am glad he turned out good. But I also would have loved it had he been the Machiavellan villain I’d heard one theory call him, topping even Voldy and being the real antagonist. If you change the circumstances surrounding your characters, it’ll keep them wondering who’s going to do what.

I still regret Uncle Dudley not turning out to be a deep-cover SAS type who took Voldemort's head off with a shotgun in the final book, but that may just be me.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Der Sturmbrecher

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 366
    • View Profile
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2010, 11:29:46 PM »
I still regret Uncle Dudley not turning out to be a deep-cover SAS type who took Voldemort's head off with a shotgun in the final book, but that may just be me.

Not just you: 'loved the idea of Voldemort getting killed by Muggle weaponry.

Offline Sihaya

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2010, 02:08:52 AM »
Not just you: 'loved the idea of Voldemort getting killed by Muggle weaponry.

Like in Wizards?  That may be why it didn't happen.  Of course, it's been thirty years since that film.

meh

  • Guest
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2010, 04:42:05 PM »
Of course, it's been thirty years since

I'm still convinced that the late 70s did film resolution right and that everything since has been compromised to pander to audiences in a *feelgood* way.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2010, 05:04:39 PM »
I'm still convinced that the late 70s did film resolution right and that everything since has been compromised to pander to audiences in a *feelgood* way.

There are times, usually after watching some Powell and Pressburger, that I think that art was lost track of much earlier than that.

On the other hand, I would point to Polanski's Ghost Writer as an example of a taut and lean and tightly resolved thriller very much dong Seventies-era avoiding of "feelgood" compromises that came out this year.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

meh

  • Guest
Re: balance of sympathies
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2010, 05:10:44 PM »
On the other hand, I would point to Polanski's Ghost Writer as an example of a taut and lean and tightly resolved thriller very much dong Seventies-era avoiding of "feelgood" compromises that came out this year.

Saw that.    Had a bit of trouble /not/ thinking
(click to show/hide)
but past the bike scene it was nice and tight and fun.      I did have a question about it that I can't remember now.