Sponsored Magic - just for confirmation's sake...

[Falar]

And I can agree with that - if you're using it as a boost to your own magic (narratively), then you'd be subject to Lawbreaker stunts. But if you're a Knight of a Faerie Court - designated specifically to mess around with the humans the Ladies and Queens can't touch - I don't see why you couldn't fireball some guy with a gun.

Oh, I think you'd definitely get the power - but there's nobody around to tell you it's bad. You're not under the laws of the Wardens anymore - you're being governed by the Fae Court. So I guess instead of the slide so much into evil, the getting of the power this way would be the slide more into service of the Fae Courts. But I can see there's a ton of disagreement on this point, so it's pretty moot and pretty much the way you play your game.

Hey - as an aside - does Sponsored Magic still side-effect hex stuff? My gut says "yes, definitely", but I've seen people say, "lol, no, of course not."

[digital3lf]

1) Correct
2) Correct
3) Up to your group/GM.

Mechanically, referring to Lawbreaker stunts, it is recommended that you discuss this and reach a decision before it comes up. Personally, I think it's a matter of the character involved. If they break a law out of necessity, by accident, or if there is some grey area they are unsure of, it's possible for them to pick up the stunt. If they feel remorse for having done it, and don't intend to do it again, I'd be more forgiving about forcing the stunt on them. On the other hand, if it was intentional, they are glad to have broken the law, and/or plan to do it again when the opportunity presents itself, they're a lawbreaker, sponsor or no. Again this is just my personal approach, I'd like to see it be character driven rather than hard and fast rules.

Story wise, the Wardens oversee all magic users who are mortals. White Council members might get the stink eye from them more often, but I am certain that no Warden would have any hesitation about cutting down a sponsored magic user if they were blatantly breaking laws. If you have an argument to the contrary, that can be roleplayed at the table. Most likely at swordpoint.

[ballplayer72]

1) Correct
2) Correct
3) Up to your group/GM.

Mechanically, referring to Lawbreaker stunts, it is recommended that you discuss this and reach a decision before it comes up. Personally, I think it's a matter of the character involved. If they break a law out of necessity, by accident, or if there is some grey area they are unsure of, it's possible for them to pick up the stunt. If they feel remorse for having done it, and don't intend to do it again, I'd be more forgiving about forcing the stunt on them. On the other hand, if it was intentional, they are glad to have broken the law, and/or plan to do it again when the opportunity presents itself, they're a lawbreaker, sponsor or no. Again this is just my personal approach, I'd like to see it be character driven rather than hard and fast rules.

Story wise, the Wardens oversee all magic users who are mortals. White Council members might get the stink eye from them more often, but I am certain that no Warden would have any hesitation about cutting down a sponsored magic user if they were blatantly breaking laws. If you have an argument to the contrary, that can be roleplayed at the table. Most likely at swordpoint.

Actually wardens only fool with mortal magic users.   Fae knights don't sling mortal magic, they sling fae magic.  They are not subject to the Laws, just like the Denarians.   Whether this applies to the mechanics of the world is another story though.    The wardens can't hunt down the summer knight because he offs someone with a fiery butterfly.  He's not subject to their laws, only titania and the accords.       Whether killing another human with magic twists him into a monster or not is really up to jim (canonwise) and iago and company (game mechanics wise for the "real game") or your GM (house rules style)

[TheRedBaron]

Hey - as an aside - does Sponsored Magic still side-effect hex stuff? My gut says "yes, definitely", but I've seen people say, "lol, no, of course not."

Absolutely not. This is backed up by source material - Fix still rides motorcycles, for example, and Nicodemus - maybe a Hellfire user? - drives around in a car. Ronald Ruel had clocks. Fix driving a bike is still the big one, though.

Unseelie Magic can be used to deliberately hex something, though.

[digital3lf]

Actually wardens only fool with mortal magic users.   Fae knights don't sling mortal magic, they sling fae magic.  They are not subject to the Laws, just like the Denarians.   Whether this applies to the mechanics of the world is another story though.    The wardens can't hunt down the summer knight because he offs someone with a fiery butterfly.  He's not subject to their laws, only titania and the accords.       Whether killing another human with magic twists him into a monster or not is really up to jim (canonwise) and iago and company (game mechanics wise for the "real game") or your GM (house rules style)

I understand this distinction but I read "mortal magic user" as a mortal who uses magic of any sort. Fae Knights are partially mortal, are they not? I thought their semi-mortality was what made them so valuable to the Courts. Or does Fae Knight refer to something else? I was assuming the "Knight of a Faerie Court" template in the book. Following that, they are part mortal, so I'd assume a Warden could be obliged to remove whatever portion of their head that the Fae don't claim as "theirs". Is there stuff in the books about Wardens not doing so? I'm only on the 3rd one so far. I don't mean to be argumentative, I would really like to know if that's the case - although I don't like it if it is.

[John Galt]

Knights are 100% mortal.  They are specifically granted power To do the Queens' dirty work.   Wardens are not stupid enough to attack a Fae Knight and incur a Faerie Queen's wrath.  Sponsored magic operates outside wc law when the sponsor is a member of the accords and is powerful enough to challenge the council itself.  If you think you can kill with magic sponsored by a lesser dragon, you'll probably be tasting Warden steel by breakfast.

[CMEast]

I was literally just about to post that John Galt. I think that sponsored magic (magic that's not your own) might not always break one of the rules of the universe, but it may well break the rules of the wardens and, unless you have protection from the wardens by a member of the accords that they aren't at war with, they'll chop your head off if they can.

Plus, if you read the lawbreaker stunt, it states why those laws exist. Even with a sponsor, I think the first four laws will still stain your 'soul' and the last 3 laws will still break the natural order, no matter where the power originates.

[digital3lf]

Sponsored magic operates outside wc law when the sponsor is a member of the accords and is powerful enough to challenge the council itself.  If you think you can kill with magic sponsored by a lesser dragon, you'll probably be tasting Warden steel by breakfast.

Nice. I like that solution a lot. It's ambiguous and brings in all sorts of political maneuvering and repercussions. Thanks guys!

[Deadmanwalking]

1) You can't take Refinements.
2) You can take rotes.
3) Up for debate.

More or less, though I and others think you can take Refinement for extra Item Slots only.

[ballplayer72]

I understand this distinction but I read "mortal magic user" as a mortal who uses magic of any sort. Fae Knights are partially mortal, are they not? I thought their semi-mortality was what made them so valuable to the Courts. Or does Fae Knight refer to something else? I was assuming the "Knight of a Faerie Court" template in the book. Following that, they are part mortal, so I'd assume a Warden could be obliged to remove whatever portion of their head that the Fae don't claim as "theirs". Is there stuff in the books about Wardens not doing so? I'm only on the 3rd one so far. I don't mean to be argumentative, I would really like to know if that's the case - although I don't like it if it is.

I think youre taking "mortal magic user" the wrong way.   Its not simply someone who's human and uses magic.  its someone human who uses HUMAN magic.  least thats the way I  see it.   

For a knight of the fae the WC wardens can't hunt them for law violations.  The magic used is summer or winters, not joe wizards.  not mortal magic, not the wardens problem. (at least im' fairly sure).

Now if you had a wizard that got sponsored magic (not a knight mantle, just a deal for some umph. say he traded a baby for it or something) and he offed someone with it, the wardens could surely lop his head off.   Because he's not part of a court he's still under their jurisdiction.   At least i'm fairly sure.

[ballplayer72]

I was literally just about to post that John Galt. I think that sponsored magic (magic that's not your own) might not always break one of the rules of the universe, but it may well break the rules of the wardens and, unless you have protection from the wardens by a member of the accords that they aren't at war with, they'll chop your head off if they can.

Plus, if you read the lawbreaker stunt, it states why those laws exist. Even with a sponsor, I think the first four laws will still stain your 'soul' and the last 3 laws will still break the natural order, no matter where the power originates.

i think the stain your soul bit only applies if its YOUR magic, not you just channeling titanias or mabs magic..  but idk.   we'd need a WOJ for that i think.

[CMEast]

I would argue that any act, magical or not, has an effect on your 'soul', but the vast majority of acts are negligible in game terms. Killing people without the use of magic still makes you a bad person, but using magic is using a part of who you are to do it, thus magnifying the effect it has. I'd say that using summer magic to kill would turn you more summer-y and winter magic more winter-y, both of which would make you less human, more monstrous and so more likely to do it again. Hellfire would obviously leave a mark on your soul and soulfire is your pure soul itself used as fuel.

I think the point of the first four laws is to make sure wizards aren't turning in to monsters (losing refresh level in game terms), especially as monsters that are just following their evil nature are more likely to break the last three laws, the ones that upset the natural balance and open the doors for the outsiders.

[Bubba Amon Hotep]

I have been reading and listening to this one.  And I think there is a point some are missing. 

Sponsored Magic.  Means someone is lending you magic.  You call on them and they either GRANT or DENY you power.

If a dragon sponsors you, and while not on a specific duty for the dragon you toast someone, or abuse your magic, I would think the dragon would simply DENY you that power you are attempting to summon.  Think of it. 

You go in for the killing blow and the sponsor DENIES you power.  So there you are, powerless, and the foe you had been attempting to kill now has the upper hand.

Just goes to show that all power needs to be used responsibly.  Why does the spider man quote always pop up in my head.

[TheRedBaron]

Bump for a week.

[Viatos]

I have been reading and listening to this one.  And I think there is a point some are missing. 

Sponsored Magic.  Means someone is lending you magic.  You call on them and they either GRANT or DENY you power.

If a dragon sponsors you, and while not on a specific duty for the dragon you toast someone, or abuse your magic, I would think the dragon would simply DENY you that power you are attempting to summon.  Think of it. 

You go in for the killing blow and the sponsor DENIES you power.  So there you are, powerless, and the foe you had been attempting to kill now has the upper hand.

Just goes to show that all power needs to be used responsibly.  Why does the spider man quote always pop up in my head.

It's notable that the rules explain how a Sponsor can cut you off for incurring too much debt, but don't talk about this happening normally. I think the reason they don't is so that GMs don't try to use this to control their players. Players have compellable High Concepts already; they can resist those compels without losing access to their magic. Best example is that the Faerie Knights can always say 'no' but don't stop being Faerie Knights until their mantle is yanked (which should be an Extreme Level 2 consequence of a social conflict with a Queen at BEST). Sponsored Magic provides a unique debt mechanic to play with, but the basic power it grants should not, in my opinion, be yoinked this way.

I agree that the Laws apply (both WC and metaphysical versions) only to mortal humans using their own innate magic. If you use Faerie Magic to murder a dozen infants, you do not become a Lawbreaker and the Wardens are only licensed to stop you because you're assaulting humanity, not because you broke one of their Laws (you didn't, they can take it up with Titania or Mab if they don't like it). Sponsored Magic is not the magic of your soul and you take no metaphyiscal backlash for using it in ways that your soul would rebel against; there's no connecting thread. Sponsored Magic is not human magic and is not subject to White Council control, although if you become a threat to humanity you can be dealt with as normal.