Author Topic: DISPROVE THIS  (Read 125780 times)

Offline Curly

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2010, 05:05:47 PM »
Quote from: Curly
Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want?

So you'd rape a woman because you desire her and you are able to physically overpower her?

Cause thats where that logic leads.     ::)
That's quite a leap. Care to explicit your "logic" for those of us with shorter mental legs?


You quoted it and so did I:  Who would not use whatsoever power they had (like say physical strength) to get what they want (sex with a particular woman.)?
Yep, it had been posted twice and you still failed to understand.

Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want.
Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want.
Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want.
Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want.
The word WHATSOEVER puts no limits on means. The phrase "what they want" puts no limits on certain outcomes.    That means you could use any means to achieve any goal (in this instance physical strength to force sexual intercourse).
Thats the problem with making absolute statements.  I have yet to see one that fits every situation (doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I haven't seen it)
Indeed.
We don't even have to use rape as an example if it makes you uncomfortable.  
I don't see any need to further complicate things. Let's stick with your rape example.

So. How does "logic" lead you from "Who never uses..." to me being a rapist? And how would me being a rapist change the validity of my belief that people are already savage animals, that giving one power through a Darkhallow would fundamentally change their nature?
;) unless explicitly stated otherwise

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Offline ballplayer72

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2010, 05:10:43 PM »
Yep, it had been posted twice and you still failed to understand.

Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want.
Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want.
Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want.
Who never uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want. Indeed. I don't see any need to further complicate things. Let's stick with your rape example.

So. How does "logic" lead you from "Who never uses..." to me being a rapist? And how would me being a rapist change the validity of my belief that people are already savage animals, that giving one power through a Darkhallow would fundamentally change their nature?
Who NEVER uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want? = Who wouldn't use whatsoever power they have to get what they want.

Ive already explained it to you dude.   I'm not calling you a rapist, its simply an example to show you where your "everyone acts like THIS" fails.   Because not everyone rapes or murders people because they can.  Shit dude its not difficult.
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Offline Reil

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2010, 05:13:40 PM »
actually the only evidence we have that Angels(Fallen or otherwise) are from before time is /maybe/ Lash saying she was around for Millennium before those little upstarts men.  But Lash is about as reliable as a pathological liar.

And Thorned Namshiel, who has the same reliability problem.

I'm trying to think if Mab has ever said anything relating to this.  I remember her complaining about time and wondering if there would ever be an end to it, which strikes me as rather ironic in and of itself, but the only time I can remember her talking about angels was when she complemented Uriel's style.

Offline Curly

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2010, 05:33:45 PM »
Who NEVER uses whatsoever power they have to get what they want? = Who wouldn't use whatsoever power they have to get what they want.
No, it doesn't quite mean that, but let's call it close enough.
Ive already explained it to you dude. 
Not very well, I'm afraid.

 I'm not calling you a rapist,
Of course you aren't, that would be rude :D
its simply an example to show you where your "everyone acts like THIS" fails.
It is a poor one. I didn't specify a kind of power to be used. Therefore excluding one particular one does not negate people using whatsoever power - that is to say any power in their possesion -  to acheive their goals.
   Because not everyone rapes or murders people because they can. 
Because many people can't. Or won't. But are , in my opinion, savage animals, psychopaths, if you will, who enjoy using power over each other. Which was the point I original made, to which you respond by rhetorically asking me if I'm a potential rapist. I'm still not sure what this "logic" you were speaking about is. Nor am I convinced that being a rapist has any bearing on claim. It seems rather like a non sequitur

Shit dude its not difficult.
No, it's probably not.

"Who never wears a sweater"
"Dude, you'd never wear a blue sweater, would you?"
"Um, no, what does that have to do with wearing a sweater?"

*I am, in fact, aware that not everybody choose that particular form of dress.
;) unless explicitly stated otherwise

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Offline ballplayer72

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM »
No, it doesn't quite mean that, but let's call it close enough. Not very well, I'm afraid.
 Of course you aren't, that would be rude :D  It is a poor one. I didn't specify a kind of power to be used. Therefore excluding one particular one does not negate people using whatsoever power - that is to say any power in their possesion -  to acheive their goals. Because many people can't. Or won't. But are , in my opinion, savage animals, psychopaths, if you will, who enjoy using power over each other. Which was the point I original made, to which you respond by rhetorically asking me if I'm a potential rapist. I'm still not sure what this "logic" you were speaking about is. Nor am I convinced that being a rapist has any bearing on claim. It seems rather like a non sequitur
No, it's probably not.

"Who never wears a sweater"
"Dude, you'd never wear a blue sweater, would you?"
"Um, no, what does that have to do with wearing a sweater?"

*I am, in fact, aware that not everybody choose that particular form of dress.



Dude.  Really.  Cmon.    Youre making a big deal out of something thats small.   You made a blanket statement that I disproved. 
People don't use any means available to accomplish any goal.  The simple fact that youve never robbed an ATM (using that brute physical strength, a simple hammer or rock, and a modicum of intelligence, or even hacked the thing if you knew how) when you needed money, or raped someone (using either brute force, or drugs) when you wanted sex and couldn't find a consenting partner, is rather telling.  People have limits to what they are willing to do. 

What you describe (will commit any action or use any means to accomplish any goal that strikes their fancy) is a classic sociopath.  Someone completely without restraint.  For them the simple fact that they CAN do something means they are entitled to do it, should they wish to.

This is not the case for normal people (ie those without a serious psychological disorder). 

Now you may say that people will use any means to accomplish certain SPECIFIC goals.  For instance, I would do anything (and I do mean ANYTHING) to protect my child.    I would not however do ANYTHING (meaning you name it and i'll do it) for a klondike bar.  I want both of those things, yet theres only one I'm willing to go balls to the wall for.  And its not the sweet icecreamy treat with the catchy theme song.


However according to your logic (that people always use every available method to accomplish getting what they want) I would do ANYTHING for a klondike bar.  After all, I want it don't I?   But I have no money or any way to get any.  Perhaps I should just steal the klondike bar then.  And if the clerk tries to stop me?  I'll beat him up.   
Ive just described using all things in my power (simply taking it even though it doesn't belong to me and Ive no money to purchase it, and beating up the rightful owner when he tries to stop me) to get what I want (in this case a delicious klondike bar).     

Are you seeing the problem now?  Most people WON"T just take it because they "want" it.  Even though it is surely in their power, and they surely desire it, most people won't commit a wide variety of acts they find to be morally abhorrant to obtain the object of said desire.  Even if they COULD theoretically commit such acts.  Meaning that even though its IN THEIR POWER they don't USE THAT POWER.  Happens all the time.   You can tell by how society generally functions and doesn't revert to state of nature.  (which is kinda what youre talking about, but not really applicable if youre talking about any group of humans that exist as a society and not as individual animals beating each other with rocks for survivial.)
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Offline Shecky

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2010, 06:52:55 PM »
BP, if I'm reading correctly, I believe you're misunderstanding what Curly's saying. He's saying that th impulse IS in ALL of us (or close enough to all as not to matter). The only thing stopping most people is the probability of punishment, NOT because they "wouldn't do it" - they don't want to face what would happen if they got caught.
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Offline svb1972

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2010, 07:01:15 PM »
BP, if I'm reading correctly, I believe you're misunderstanding what Curly's saying. He's saying that th impulse IS in ALL of us (or close enough to all as not to matter). The only thing stopping most people is the probability of punishment, NOT because they "wouldn't do it" - they don't want to face what would happen if they got caught.

I disagree.  There are things I won't do.  Not because I'm afraid of the punishment, but because I genuinely think they're wrong.
I think many people have things they won't do on principle

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2010, 07:07:33 PM »
I disagree.  There are things I won't do.  Not because I'm afraid of the punishment, but because I genuinely think they're wrong.
I think many people have things they won't do on principle

..there must be some way of tying this back to Harry somehow, but I just can't put my finger on it...
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Offline Shecky

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2010, 07:08:33 PM »
I disagree.  There are things I won't do.  Not because I'm afraid of the punishment, but because I genuinely think they're wrong.
I think many people have things they won't do on principle

Not my point; I did say "most". While I should have added "much of the time", my point still stands - I would be willing to wager my income for the next five years that the majority of "bad", illegal or downright evil acts for which people refuse to indulge the impulse are avoided not out of moral/ethical principle but out of fear of punishment. The human being is not an inherently moral or ethical creature - those are constructs provided us by civilization. Some we recognize as a good thing and absorb wholeheartedly, while the rest we adopt as a matter of practicality (i.e., to avoid society's punishment).

In short, that "line" that most people won't cross is most likely NOT at as high an altitude that they would have the rest of us believe... or would have THEMSELVES believe.
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Offline Curly

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2010, 07:22:16 PM »


Dude.  Really.  Cmon.    Youre making a big deal out of something thats small.


If I were making a big deal out of something small, I would start using provocative language, ad hominem attacks, rude capitalisation. I would stop using terms like "I believe, I feel, I think, it may be that". If I were to make a very big deal out of it, I may, possibly, even point to my sig and explicitly say it was non-applicable for this post. But it is applicable.

   You made a blanket statement that I disproved. 
Without getting into accepted standards of proof, subjectivity and relativity and such, I stated an opinion which you seem to be taking issue with. You haven't disproved as far as I can see, and although I don't think it's likely that you'll disprove it, I would like to hear, in a detailed explanation, why you disagree.

People don't use any means available to accomplish any goal. 
The word I used was "whatsoever" which is generally defined as something in the ballpark of " one or some or every or all without specification". I did not say  "all people, use every means in every case to get what they want". I have not said this, which is why you telling me that "all people use every means in every case" is not true, reads to me as a non-sequitur.

What you describe (will commit any action or use any means to accomplish any goal that strikes their fancy)

This is not what I described
is a classic sociopath.
It is. It is not, however, what I described. I was talking about psychopaths. A term which I believe has fallen into disuse among respectable psychologists, but which is usually taken to mean a person who feels little empathy for other or who enjoys making others suffer.

   Someone completely without restraint.  For them the simple fact that they CAN do something means they are entitled to do it, should they wish to.
What a sociopath appears to be.

This is not the case for normal people (ie those without a serious psychological disorder). 
While I don't agree with this, it isn't relevant to what I said, so I won't comment upon it.

However according to your logic (that people always use every available method to accomplish getting what they want)
That is almost, but not quite, exactly what I did not say.
Ive just described using all things in my power (simply taking it even though it doesn't belong to me and Ive no money to purchase it, and beating up the rightful owner when he tries to stop me) to get what I want (in this case a delicious klondike bar). 
Which is cool, but not relevant.
   
Are you seeing the problem now?
Yes. You appear not to understand the distinction between [ANY] as found in most dictionaries and [ALL] as found in most dictionaries.

You can tell by how society generally functions and doesn't revert to state of nature.  (which is kinda what youre talking about, but not really applicable if youre talking about any group of humans that exist as a society and not as individual animals beating each other with rocks for survivial.)
The existence of society is to my mind indicative of the fact the people are bastards, psychopaths, disgusting savage animals - but ones who have the rationality to agree not to kill each other because they understand that most of us can dish out much more than we can take.

People use seduction, lies, fear, suspicion etc to gain advantages. They make people feel bad, sometimes for personal gain, sometimes for nothing more than the pleasure of seeing a person cry. I think most of us are like that. Maybe you don't, do you?

Which is why I think that gaining power won't fundamentally change a person, it will simply reveal who s/he really is.

I think Harry is a person who genuinely cares about people, which is why I would not object to his acquire great power, and trust him to use it with great responsibility.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 07:24:28 PM by Curly »
;) unless explicitly stated otherwise

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Offline Reil

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2010, 07:25:25 PM »
Not my point; I did say "most". While I should have added "much of the time", my point still stands - I would be willing to wager my income for the next five years that the majority of "bad", illegal or downright evil acts for which people refuse to indulge the impulse are avoided not out of moral/ethical principle but out of fear of punishment. The human being is not an inherently moral or ethical creature - those are constructs provided us by civilization. Some we recognize as a good thing and absorb wholeheartedly, while the rest we adopt as a matter of practicality (i.e., to avoid society's punishment).

In short, that "line" that most people won't cross is most likely NOT at as high an altitude that they would have the rest of us believe... or would have THEMSELVES believe.

I agree, and would add that the idea of "punishment" is far wider than any overt action by an authority figure.  

 - I didn't ask her out because I'm afraid it would change our relationship.
 - I can't be open with my homosexuality because it would hurt my Parents feelings.
 - I didn't eat that cheeto because I wanted my coworkers to think I'm health conscious.
 - I didn't bring up politics/religion/free-will in that conversation because I didn't want to touch off a huge debate that solves nothing and just pisses-off all parties involved.


It's not the reason for every decision, but fear of punishment/rejection/social-censure affects most people far more than they'd  probably like to admit.

Offline Aakaakaak

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2010, 07:27:45 PM »
Stop quibbling over small potatoes please.
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Offline Shecky

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2010, 07:37:17 PM »
Stop quibbling over small potatoes please.

I WILL ALWAYS QUIBBLE OVER NEW (SMALL) POTATOES.



Step back from the potatoes and nobody gets hurt.
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Offline Curly

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2010, 07:39:17 PM »
I WILL ALWAYS QUIBBLE OVER NEW (SMALL) POTATOES.



Step back from the potatoes and nobody gets hurt.

I'd tend to call them middling potatoes.

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Why are you assuming it has to be heartbreaking ?

Offline Shecky

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Re: DISPROVE THIS
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2010, 07:39:54 PM »
I'd tend to call them middling potatoes.

*runs cackling into the wilderness*

They are small potatoes. In a large close-up. *hairy eyeball*
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Well, if you couldn't do that with your bulls***, Leonard, I suspect the lad's impervious.