DISPROVE THIS

[nthnclls]

Molly lying now and then going back in time and undergoing a change of state which makes her unable to lie again seems not inconceivable to me.

But it would not change that fact that she said, while Mab and therefore unable to lie, that the start would fall from the sky BEFORE Mab breaks her word.

I read that as saying that she has never lied, seeing as that hasn't happened yet.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

But it would not change that fact that she said, while Mab and therefore unable to lie, that the start would fall from the sky BEFORE Mab breaks her word.

Before, yes.  But why can't that be "before" in her personal timeline ?

Mab saying that could be referring to her personal future.  Not her personal past as Molly even if that happens to be in the future of when she said it from someone else's perspective.

[neofyte]

seems not inconceivable

Must /contain/ the PB monster, aaarrrgghhhhh

[nthnclls]

Before, yes.  But why can't that be "before" in her personal timeline ?

Mab saying that could be referring to her personal future.  Not her personal past as Molly even if that happens to be in the future of when she said it from someone else's perspective.

Ah, didn't see it that way.  Possible, I guess.

[Maltese Falcon]

It is a paradox though. Molly, knowing Mab boinks Harry, decides to study rites of ascension for a few decades, study time travel (on the down-low) for a bit after to go back to the past, becomes Mab with her mom and grandmother, along and the Summer trio (in the process becoming inhuman to the point of almost evil), waits for millenia, and finally gets him on the Table for a single good time. I think it is a bit convoluted for Molly. She just needs to get him a big case of Mac's good stuff once he is back.

Where does it say Molly knows?
Only the Fae saw the show, and others only suspect massive power but know not it's source.

Even if Harry tells her one day I doubt he would describe the actual ritual that transpired.

[jbmdw45]

Molly has lied, and Mab said that the stars will fall out of the skies before she breaks her word.

Unless Mab is, well, lying about that.

-Max
(Obviously not taking this theory seriously.)

[Aakaakaak]

Mab doesn't break her word. Molly can and has lied. If Molly went back in time and did some ascension thing (which I had no idea mortals could do. I figured it was strictly a fae thing.) she would no longer be Molly, but Mab. She would be assuming a new identity. Right?

[neofyte]

Unless Mab is, well, lying about that.
-Max
(Obviously not taking this theory seriously.)

I guess anything is possible, but thus far Jim has consistently used the formula of: ascension comes with commensurate amounts of power and constraint.  As a force of nature, I don' think Mab can lie.  As well the world dissemble for no other reason than atoms decided to stop attracting each other based on charge.  Human, endowed with free will, seem to be the only ones with the dubious privilege of reconstructing reality to fit their own subjective whim.

[Maltese Falcon]

You know if it is molly.
That could be how Mab said you will bow before me and take the mantle of Winter night.

She already knew he would/did.
Plus that would allow her to have been speaking the truth too.

[MijRai]

We know they used rites of ascension, but has it been confirmed that they started as mortals ?

The hags in "Welcome to the Jungle" are a long-way from human, and planning to use an ascension rite, so we can't say ascension rites are limited to only working for humans.

They started off mortal like the Erlking started off mortal, if I remember correctly.

[Maltese Falcon]

They started off mortal like the Erlking started off mortal, if I remember correctly.

Where do you remember that from exactly?

[jbmdw45]

I guess anything is possible, but thus far Jim has consistently used the formula of: ascension comes with commensurate amounts of power and constraint.  As a force of nature, I don' think Mab can lie.  As well the world dissemble for no other reason than atoms decided to stop attracting each other based on charge.  Human, endowed with free will, seem to be the only ones with the dubious privilege of reconstructing reality to fit their own subjective whim.

The little sequence with the Erlking, and the fact that he considered the option of just ignoring "courtesy" and killing Harry, suggests that courtesy and keeping their word is something the Fae have power not to do. The raw fury Mab displays at Harry's suggestion that she might break her word likewise suggests that for her, keeping her word is a point of personal pride and self-love, not something she is merely forced to do as a Sidhe. This, BTW, is one of the reasons I can't take the Molly-as-Mab theory seriously. A rigid sense of personal honor is something you're pretty much born with or don't have at all, in my experience. It's not something Molly would acquire over time.

It is also one of the things I really like about Mab, so maybe I'm a bit biased. Mab is up there in my book with Talisman/Matthew Maule (Saberhagen's version of Dracula) in personal coolness, not to mention scariness. In Butcher terminology, she is gadara.

-Max

[Landing]

They started off mortal like the Erlking started off mortal, if I remember correctly.

I can't remember anything from anywhere that states that the Erlking started off mortal, where did you hear that?

[Salacia]

So if Mab is/was Molly, what about her statement that if Harry dies before he can take on the mantle of Winter Knight, Thomas was mortal enough to be Winter Knight in his stead?  I know Molly enjoyed

(click to show/hide)

her kiss with Thomas

in Changes, but was it to the extent that if she can't have Harry, his brother would do instead? Very creative, interesting theory, but I think that Mab wanted Harry to be Winter Knight  because of his bloodline rather than that she was in love with him thousands of years ago when she was human.

[MijRai]

It was a signing, and someone asked about the Darkhallow and the Erlking. Jim said Erl got to his rank from a mortal hunter to an equal of Mab with a rite of ascension, and at a later one he said close to the same thing about the Queens.