DISPROVE THIS

[Shecky]

Best spoof post yet.

*sadface* But... but... but I've been told this one has its supporters:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,9476.msg338294.html#msg338294

The vord will be destroyed by persuasive subprime-mortgage lenders and fly-by-night stockbrokers. All that remains of them will be a few sad-looking ones slumping against Aleran walls holding up signs: "WILL SWARM FOR FOOD."

[Ms Duck]

No we don't, the word of jim that talked about this only said he did a rite of ascension to get to where he is. It never said he was a human before. it might turn out that he was human but it isn't proven at this point yet.

Im calling 'shenanigans' on this one; the quote from JB came out from the question of what would have happened to cowl had he succeded in casting the ascension ritual; the implication of ' he would have become a god, just like the erlking did. How do you think the erlking bacame that way in the first place?'

seems fairly clear to me that the erlking was hum,an at one point.

as he appears very not human now, it is allso obvious to me that his appearance or nature changed via the ritual or what happens afterward. Or conversely, he changed his appearance to suit.

futhermore, Mab can change her appearance at will,and has done sop in the books; why cant erl?

as to the next objection, it allso seems clear to me that such rituals require human sacrifice. Of the three we have seen so far, all three would have drawn their power from large scale human death. To assume Mab was a little fairy who went around sacrificing lots and lots and lots of other little fairies seems unlikely when Kemmler started world war 1 to jump start his ritual.

and having Molly dropped at the later part of the ice age actually makes some sense- she did the ritual to become Mab to restore balance to the world, thus saving it.

and not to get into TT subjects like global warming, but look up snowball earth. its rather fascinating. You used to be able to ski from the north pole to the south without much problem.

PS: Ducks dont care about the names of water bodies. We just crap in them.

[Ms Duck]

cross post from the belts thread:

"if the erlking has prescience, why not?

"I mean, sure, the Erlking is a peer of Mab's--but there's kind of a reason that it's /Mab/ who rules the Worst of the Worst in Faerie, and not the Erlking.

All of which doesn't even TOUCH on the way power is actually balanced in Faerie, because neither Mab nor the Erlking would attempt such a thing, or /consider/ attempting such a thing.  It would upset the natural order.  Conflicts between most of the Fae powers are very subtle, and generally involve proxies, pride, sex or all of the above."-JB

so Erl knows Harry will be important to Mab later, knows she has a very personal interest in him (cough MollyisMab couhccough sorry duck in my throat), and decides to subtly try and take him out.

Its a lot easier in chess if you can see which pawn will become the queen and shoot it before the game begins."

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Im calling 'shenanigans' on this one; the quote from JB came out from the question of what would have happened to cowl had he succeded in casting the ascension ritual; the implication of ' he would have become a god, just like the erlking did. How do you think the erlking bacame that way in the first place?'
seems fairly clear to me that the erlking was hum,an at one point.

But we've also been given the example of the hags in WttJ, who are not human, aiming to pull off an ascension rite, so we know that one does not have to be human to carry one out.

It seems clear to me that Jim's comment there falls under the "at least as tricksy as Mab" category.

[Landing]

Im calling 'shenanigans' on this one; the quote from JB came out from the question of what would have happened to cowl had he succeded in casting the ascension ritual; the implication of ' he would have become a god, just like the erlking did. How do you think the erlking bacame that way in the first place?'

seems fairly clear to me that the erlking was hum,an at one point.

as he appears very not human now, it is allso obvious to me that his appearance or nature changed via the ritual or what happens afterward. Or conversely, he changed his appearance to suit.

futhermore, Mab can change her appearance at will,and has done sop in the books; why cant erl?

as to the next objection, it allso seems clear to me that such rituals require human sacrifice. Of the three we have seen so far, all three would have drawn their power from large scale human death. To assume Mab was a little fairy who went around sacrificing lots and lots and lots of other little fairies seems unlikely when Kemmler started world war 1 to jump start his ritual.

and having Molly dropped at the later part of the ice age actually makes some sense- she did the ritual to become Mab to restore balance to the world, thus saving it.

and not to get into TT subjects like global warming, but look up snowball earth. its rather fascinating. You used to be able to ski from the north pole to the south without much problem.

PS: Ducks dont care about the names of water bodies. We just crap in them.

Unless Jim flat out states the Erlking was once human it is only a assumption and should be presented as such. You can be sure that he was human as you like and base your speculation of this fact but you need to make sure people understand that it is only your speculation. People around here count on others to present the facts accurately when they are saying that have word of Jim on something since what he has commented on is scattered all over the internet. It is too easy for things to take on a life of their own and be commonly known "fact" even if they are not true with the way we trust each other around here. That is why it is so important that we present the information we receive from Jim as accurately as possible and not confuse the situation with our own assumptions and interpretations.

I myself think it is most likely that the Erlking was once a human or at least a changeling, mostly do to that almost un-fae like way he behaved in Changes. But since the facts of the matter are not established as of yet I have to be sure I let people know this is only what I believe not fact.

[mid_life_crisis]

I'm calling 'shenanigans' on this one; the quote from JB came out from the question of what would have happened to Cowl had he succeded in casting the ascension ritual; the implication of "he would have become a god, just like the erlking did. How do you think the Erlking became that way in the first place?"

seems fairly clear to me that the Erlking was human at one point.

You are of course assuming that Cowl is human.  Have we seen proof of that anywhere?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

You are of course assuming that Cowl is human.  Have we seen proof of that anywhere?

If I ever need to retire, you can be me.

[Ms Duck]

Unless Jim flat out states the Erlking was once human it is only a assumption and should be presented as such. You can be sure that he was human as you like and base your speculation of this fact but you need to make sure people understand that it is only your speculation. People around here count on others to present the facts accurately when they are saying that have word of Jim on something since what he has commented on is scattered all over the internet. It is too easy for things to take on a life of their own and be commonly known "fact" even if they are not true with the way we trust each other around here. That is why it is so important that we present the information we receive from Jim as accurately as possible and not confuse the situation with our own assumptions and interpretations.

I myself think it is most likely that the Erlking was once a human or at least a changeling, mostly do to that almost un-fae like way he behaved in Changes. But since the facts of the matter are not established as of yet I have to be sure I let people know this is only what I believe not fact.

and thus i preceded my points with 'it seems clear to me..' 'is obvoius to me..' 'i belive that' and the classic 'this is all stupid crap duck says..' ; quite frankly anyone on this board for more then twenty minutes could conclude I am am either the class clown or the village idiot round here.

[Jared]

You are of course assuming that Cowl is human.  Have we seen proof of that anywhere?

At first I laughed, but now I'm thinking...

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

quite frankly anyone on this board for more then twenty minutes could conclude I am am either the class clown or the village idiot round here.

Hey, I respect your talents: I'm sure you can handle being both.

[Ms Duck]

But we've also been given the example of the hags in WttJ, who are not human, aiming to pull off an ascension rite, so we know that one does not have to be human to carry one out.

It seems clear to me that Jim's comment there falls under the "at least as tricksy as Mab" category.

and do we have any evidence that they were not in fact at one time human?

there are two classical origins for this sort of mythology:

the classical religous, which have all powerfull gods whom created the world, sky, and mortals;( gods created man)

and the more modern, which have the gods being ascended mortals, either thru heroism, mythology, worship, or sacrifice.
(man creates gods)

so far, witht he possible exemption of the white god, the only powers we have seen seem to me be of the latter kind. Half mortal demi gods who gain power by preying on or sacrificing mortals..in the DV, I think a claim can be made that mortals are the source of all the magic, and many of the 'gods' just super vampires of some kind.

[Ms Duck]

Hey, I respect your talents: I'm sure you can handle being both.

Tank Ewe (HUGS)

yknow someday the other students are going to do something about you ruining the grading curve...

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

and do we have any evidence that they were not in fact at one time human?

I suppose not, though we equally have none that they are.

so far, witht he possible exemption of the white god, the only powers we have seen seem to me be of the latter kind. Half mortal demi gods who gain power by preying on or sacrificing mortals..in the DV, I think a claim can be made that mortals are the source of all the magic, and many of the 'gods' just super vampires of some kind.

I can buy that most gods originate from mortal humans, I just think there are classes of being in the DV that are neither.  Bob appears to exist on a different wavelength from faith-based entities like angels, and Faerie seems to work distinctly differently from gods; we are told vampires originate in the NN.

Changes spoilers:

(click to show/hide)

The LoONs we see in may or may not be the original Maya gods, but I see no reason to think they started off as human rather than as vampires originating from wherever in the NN vampires originate.

[Landing]

and thus i preceded my points with 'it seems clear to me..' 'is obvoius to me..' 'i belive that' and the classic 'this is all stupid crap duck says..' ; quite frankly anyone on this board for more then twenty minutes could conclude I am am either the class clown or the village idiot round here.

you called 'shenanigans' on me pointing out that we didn't know for certain if the Erlkind was human or not so I assumed you were claiming that it was fact that he was, that is why I gave the rather long winded and stuffy speech about moral obligations to the truth and so forth. I apologize if I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

class clown maybe but certainly never the village idiot. maybe just a little confused. 

[Ms Duck]

I suppose not, though we equally have none that they are.

I can buy that most gods originate from mortal humans, I just think there are classes of being in the DV that are neither.  Bob appears to exist on a different wavelength from faith-based entities like angels, and Faerie seems to work distinctly differently from gods; we are told vampires originate in the NN.

Changes spoilers:

(click to show/hide)

The LoONs we see in may or may not be the original Maya gods, but I see no reason to think they started off as human rather than as vampires originating from wherever in the NN vampires originate.

i answer your spoiler with a

(click to show/hide)

uriel does seem to imply that the LooN are not the original mayan gods, but pretenders

as to uglies from the NN.. i think it might be a feedback system. wizard a ascends to demigodhood, creates servants, they go back to earth, some of them breed with humnas or bond with humans, now they want to become demigods so they set up their own religions/ rtiuals/ sheep farms..much like the loonies did.