How To Stat Sleeping Powder

[Nyarlathotep5150]

However, I disagree with people saying a stress-based item or spell is not worth the trouble. Consider that a wizard would attack with Discipline (presumably +4 at least and usually +5) or even his own control roll for a spell (+6 for most beginner wizards but as high as +10 for a submerged mind-mage) and enemy defends with Discipline. Also consider that the effect would be a Weapon 4 mental attack for an enchanted item based on Lore, a weapon 6 mental attack for a stunner/sleepining spell from a beginner wizard and as much as weapon 8-10 deep slumber spell from a submerged mindmage. How many enemies have a full mental stress track and high discipline to boot?


Against an average enemy (discipline defense of 3) the enchanted item would do on average 5-6 mental stress, the sleep spell would do 9 mental stress and the mind-mage's slumber spell would do as much as 15 mental stress. So all of them would at least deal one consequence - which in addition to being taggable, it is ALSO an aspect that can be compelled even if the spell does not acheive take-out.

   This is a perfect example of why a sleep spell SHOULDN'T be a stress dealing attack. It doesn't make thematic sense. Either 1) the target takes a minor consequence. From the examples given I would not let a Minor consequence take a target out of the fight entirely. or 2) the target takes a more powerful consequence and you're saying hes walking around under the effects of this spell for days or even weeks later (Unless you're a faerie, I don't think you're trying to put people to sleep for years).
    A maneuver is simpler. Its less shifts to pull off. And it gets the thematic effect of the spell without overkill.

P.S. While it is true that an attack version could attack either mental (controlling the mind to go into sleep state), or physical (putting the body into a quasiparalysis identical to sleep), it is important to remember that the former is a breach of the 4th law.

[Belial666]

You don't need to control the mind - or even invade it - to make someone sleep. Just drain their energy and cause mental exhaustion (as if they'd used magic) until they fall asleep.


As for consequences of putting someone to sleep, most mammals that take a large enough dose of sedatives to knock them out in minutes are sleepy, have low metabolism and are mildly disoriented for many hours after they wake up. Someone taking a strong enough sedative to knock them out in seconds is going to have problems for significantly longer than that - or even permanent damage. That for chemicals - stress and consequences reflect the side effects very well. No reason those should not apply for a long time.


Enchanted sleep that would be entirely without side effects would not really be in line with what we have seen on mind magic - unless the wizard was very good in delicate work. Dresden's sleep spell did not have side effects because it was not a combat evocation instant knockout - and also because it was cast on an unresisting target.

[sinker]

People really need to read the description of mental stress before you decide to deal it. Mental stress is not "Draining energy" or punching someone else's mind with your mind. Mental stress represents someone's sense of self, who you believe you are at your core. It is self-confidence and faith in your beliefs. Under normal circumstances to deal mental stress you must really know your target so that you can make them doubt their own sense of being. As a GM I would rule that dealing ANY mental stress with magic is a very clear violation of the laws unless you are using illusion or similar to show them something that will shake them (using one of the other social skills, but using magic to increase the effect).

In the past I have done a sleeping spell as a physical attack and it worked great but it seems like there are many other options that would also work great.

[Becq]

I agree with Sinker.  If you are using a 'poison' to make someone fall asleep, that is a physical attack.  Mental stress is not 'stun damage' as it is in other games, it represents damage to you psyche or a reduced ability to fend off attacks against your will.

As to mechanics, if you want to create an effect that will simply knock someone out completely, your only option is a take-out.  Against nameless NPCs, this isn't too hard (you just need enough to get past their stress tracks), but against stronger targets, you'll need a stronger effect.

Applying an aspect is a good way to make a weaker version of this sort of attack.  Once applied, simply compel sleep.  The target then will either fall asleep (accept the compel) or will have to spend a Fate point to "fight off drowsiness".  And you can choose to continue compelling until the stickiness wears off.  You can create this effect by either a maneuver-based Aspect or by an attack that results in a Consequence.  The advantage of the latter is that it will tend to be longer-lasting (and also results in stress which might come in handy if the target fights off the effect).

[Belial666]

Mental stress is not "Draining energy" or punching someone else's mind with your mind.

No. Really? Then the Domination power which is exactly what you described what stress should it be? Physical? Nope. It's Mental. For obviouls reasons. 

Mental stress represents someone's sense of self, who you believe you are at your core. It is self-confidence and faith in your beliefs.

How about a White Court Vampire's ability to feed off psychic energy directly through your emotions?  No "beliefs" are involved - just emotions and draining of psychic energy. It is not your faith that is undermined there.

Under normal circumstances to deal mental stress you must really know your target so that you can make them doubt their own sense of being.

You don't need to know someone to intimidate them. Or torture them. Or supernaturally terrify them. 



Last but not least, attacks that affect the soul directly are also mental stress. No reason to affect that pesky mind with all its Lawbreakers when you can eat somebody's soul but as long as you don't kill them, you don't get Lawbreaker. 

[Becq]

No. Really? Then the Domination power which is exactly what you described what stress should it be? Physical? Nope. It's Mental. For obviouls reasons.

Yes, and Domination involves not draining energy, but attacking the core of the target's being: their psyche and will.  Thus it's mental.

If you force someone to stay still by making them WANT to stay still, that's mental.  If you make someone stay still by shocking the crap out of them, it's physical.  With physical damage/effects, they might want to do something, and they might try to do something, but their body just isn't capable of following through.  With mental damage/effects, they might be fully capable of taking an action, but they can't bring themselves to try, either out of insufficient will, fear, or some other mental cause.  Put yet another way, mental damage is damage to what or who you are.

How about a White Court Vampire's ability to feed off psychic energy directly through your emotions?  No "beliefs" are involved - just emotions and draining of psychic energy. It is not your faith that is undermined there.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.  Yes, a WCV attacks your will, your personality, what you are.  He's not feeding off your body, he's feeding off of your spirit/soul/however you want to call it.  Thus ... you got it, mental attack.  Similarly, a RCV's saliva changes your mental state.  Thus ... mental damage.  When you cast spells, you are feeding what you are into the magic.  Mental stress.

You don't need to know someone to intimidate them. Or torture them. Or supernaturally terrify them.

Agreed.  Though knowing your victim can certainly aid such attempts.  This is why interrogators tend to try to learn as much as they can about their subject, so they can learn what buttons to press, and what methods are most likely to produce results.  Different people react differently to different techniques.

Last but not least, attacks that affect the soul directly are also mental stress. No reason to affect that pesky mind with all its Lawbreakers when you can eat somebody's soul but as long as you don't kill them, you don't get Lawbreaker. 

Mental is not just 'mind'.  It is 'self'.  As such, mind/soul/spirit/will/emotions are all lumped into 'mental'.  Attacks against any are attacks against some part of what makes you "you".

[sinker]

Firstly YS217:

Between mortals, some sort of prior connection
or justification must exist to inflict mental
stress and consequences. An aspect that defines
a relationship rife with abandonment, emotional
degradation, violence, rape, or other potential
triggers would qualify for this, as it’s assumed
that the relationship has been going on long
enough to justify being vulnerable to this kind
of severe effect. When this is the case, many
actions that qualify as social attacks can affect
the mental stress track.
Certain individuals might also have the
training to accomplish this sort of thing, going
beyond the usual trappings of Intimidation
and into torture, represented by an appropriate
stunt.

And YS218:

The stress and consequences suffered by mental
conflicts are the deepest of the deep—forays
into suicidal thoughts, emotional dependencies,
deep compulsions, and other behaviors and
thoughts typically classified as dysfunctional
in some way or another. Mental damage is the
kind of damage that changes or erodes a person’s
sense of self; suffering enough of these consequences
over time tends to presage a trip to the
mental ward, or at least to permanent counseling.
That’s one of the things that makes mind
magic so dangerous—even when used with
good intention, it can completely scar a person’s
mind beyond repair.

You don't need to know someone to intimidate them. Or torture them. Or supernaturally terrify them. 

Finally that is one exception, you generally don't need to know someone to scare them. Most people are scared of similar things. However if you know that person (say that they have a phobia of dogs) you're going to be a lot better at it. Some people won't be scared of the same things either (this is covered briefly by the comment next to intimidation and in the stunts). You try to intimidate Mab without a lot of leverage and she's going to laugh in your face.

[devonapple]

Between mortals, some sort of prior connection or justification must exist to inflict mental stress and consequences.

I think the intent here is that people need some sort of intense relationship in order to be able to inflict mental stress and consequences on one another using mundane means (conversation, manipulation, threats, etc). And this is the real victimization level of intimidation. Chronic abuse. Hitting very hard below the belt. Using personality traits against the victim. Real bad stuff, not just social discomfort. Interrogators with good intel on their subject may be able to inflict similar mental trauma to meet their goals, but the key is that this is for mortals.

For supernatural creatures, spells, etc., I believe this stricture is moot.

[sinker]

I'm aware that the examples I chose were mortal specific, but what is true of mortals isn't that different for wizards. If a mage is dealing mental stress is he not tearing that person's psyche apart? Read that whole section, starting with Mental conflict on YS217 then tell me that mental stress is not representative of one's inner thoughts and beliefs, of their "soul" so to speak.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

You don't need to know someone to intimidate them. Or torture them.

 
 The problem with that logic is that Intimidation would be social combat, or a social maneuver to place a fearbased aspect on the target. Torture (as Sinker quoted from YS) would be covered by a stunt allowing you to use some Intimidation Trappings as Mental attacks.

[Morfedel]

I really have a problem with putting someone to sleep with a maneuver. You do as suggested with compels, then  a refresh 11 critter with no chance to gain a fate point is out asleep, & throat promptly slit, or whatever.

Anything that can end a fight in one strike is clearly more than maneuver.

[devonapple]

I really have a problem with putting someone to sleep with a maneuver. You do as suggested with compels, then  a refresh 11 critter with no chance to gain a fate point is out asleep, & throat promptly slit, or whatever.

Anything that can end a fight in one strike is clearly more than maneuver.

It does bring up some logistical issues. Any other suggestions for a tranquilizer dart?

[Ryan_Singer]

I really have a problem with putting someone to sleep with a maneuver. You do as suggested with compels, then  a refresh 11 critter with no chance to gain a fate point is out asleep, & throat promptly slit, or whatever.

Anything that can end a fight in one strike is clearly more than maneuver.

Let's go through this. I think the system is working as intended, here.

First Exchange:

PC: I cast Sleep on the Monster. A offensive Spirit maneuver to put a sticky aspect that lasts 1 scene is 4 shifts. I roll a total of +7 on my discipline. Monster rolls +3 on discipline and gets the aspect "Fighting to stay Awake". I pay the monster a fate point to compel it to fall asleep. The monster has already spent two fate points, so it doesn't have any left to buy out of the compel. It falls asleep, replacing the "Fighting to stay Awake" aspect with an "Asleep" aspect.
Monster: Rolls Discipline as a maneuver to wake up, fails to beat the +7 sleep spell.

Second exchange
PC: Uses the Weapon skill to attack with a knife. Because the bad guy can't resist, he defends with mediocre. The PC has Weapons at Good, and rolls +2, making a Superb (+5) attack. Monster defends with a roll of +1, for only an Average (+1) defense. Monster takes 5 stress, meaningg probably a minor consequence, and then wakes up, as asleep is not the same thing as paralyzed.

[Becq]

1) Evocation maneuvers last one exchange, plus one exchange per extra shift spent on duration.
2) Where did the monster spend two Fate points?  (Or are you just using a case as an example in which the subject had already burned their Fate?)
3) If you want to force a high threshold against waking up, then I think you need to use a Block/Grapple.

In this case, your spell creates the Aspect, the compelled Aspect (assuming the target doesn't simply buy out of the compel) causes 'normal' sleep, and the subject would get 'normal' chances to wake up.  I think that this would probably take the form of a Discipline, Endurance, or Alertness roll to wake up, with a difficulty based on environmental effects.  For example, if there was a loud gunfight taking place, the difficulty would be quite low (or possibly auto-success).  Damage would also translate into an auto-success.  If, on the other hand, you cast this on a drowsy guard, sitting behind a desk in a quiet room ... well, in that case there might not be a trigger to even get a roll.

Of course, the sleep would also only last as long as the spell duration, which for evocation would be fairly short.

Another way to model a sleep effect might simply be a block/grapple, with the special effect that the target 'falls asleep' until they break the grapple (or until the stress from the grapple takes them out).

[Morfedel]

Why would a sleeping creature get a defense roll of any kind, mediocre or otherwise. Is there some way a sleeping creature can avoid their throat being slit?

Seriously. Putting someone in a situation where they are completely defenseless isn't simply an aspect. No way, no how. It's not even a lower consequence.

To me, you are either "blocking" or "taking the character out."

I just don't see how you could justify it any other way considering how vulnerable the target is.