Thank you Deadmanwalking. That does help me a bit with getting the ball moving with my thought process, but it does lead me to other questions.
Hey, no problem. I'm happy to help.
First, is it only a Thaumaturgy effect, or can a Wizard literally go out with a bang, much like Harry was burning to the edge of his life in the Grave Peril case? It seemed to be pretty close to a Death Curse there (especially the condition he was in afterward), and that was Evocation instead of Thaumaturgy. . .unless you count that are just a really, REALLY big spell with lots of Fate Points and Consequences behind it.
You can literally do anything with Thaumaturgy you can with Evocation...so this isn't really a meaningful distinction. Well, not beyond the fact that you DO need to use your Lore as the base, not your Evocation abilities.
Second, I personally can't see tired and broken Wardens capable of killing multiple Red Court Vampires with a single spell, as you would need to cause about 36-stress in one fell swoop in order to do so (see Victor Sells' Heart-Exploding Spell on YS301). As described, I can't see that sort of widespread destruction via one Warden, much less with Thaumaturgy.
Ah, you're forgetting that the vast majority of NPCs cannot and do not use all their Consequences. Nameless minions (including hordes of Red Court) don't use any. A 17 shift effect is easily enough to kill an entire zone full. Hell, a 10 shift effect is easily enough to kill a zone full.
And again, I'm back at the thought of leaving that lasting curse. In order to make a curse with a near-permanent change via Thaumaturgy, you would need enough shifts to win a conflict (YS263). Thus why I was concerned with the description of the shifts granted by a Death Curse; as described, you would need to cause the aforementioned 36 Stress to be certain to "take out" a foe to cause that change, which mechanically would be nigh-impossible, as even if you were unharmed, you'd still only have 20 shifts worth of consequences, and unless you can "tag" all of them afterward, I can't see it happening.
There are actually three ways to do this:
1. Take them out. Like you said, that'd do it, leaving them permanently changed. And the 36 shifts is to make really absolutely sure it will kill ANYONE. Death Curses are more specifically designed. Remember that the reason Cassius didn't go for direct damage was that he wasn't powerful enough to kill Harry with it. You can tailor this sort of thing. A PC who can't take someone out can do the same.
2. Give them an Extreme Consequence. Not much cheaper than the above but worth noting.
3. Do the Curse as a Maneuver + Duration not an attack. Look at the Entropy Curse (Mild) on p. 296. Then think about upping the duration to a decade or so... This version can only give Aspects, but it's still fucking vicious. The only downside is that it's an ongoing spell and thus can be broken...at least in theory.
Now that I'm thinking about it, are full Wizards the only ones capable of a Death Curse, or can the Focused Practitioners and Sorcerers do the same? Would there be differences to the limits of the curse at that point as well? My mind registers the differences between the curses done by Quintus Cassius and Margaret LeFay. Both left a near-permanent effect of different complexities, but were also drastically different in scales of power.
Bear in mind that Margaret was killed by an effect that did it all at once, but not quickly enough to prevent the Curse happening...and could thus burn all her Consequences on it. And all her Fate Points. That's a minimum of 28+Lore Complexity, 32+Lore if she had Superb Conviction. That's a 36 Complexity or so, plus the effects of any Fate Points she had to spend. Cassius meanwhile was killed in a fight, probably only having his Extreme Consequence, and few if any Fate Points to burn on the effect for a total complexity of merely 20 or so. Those are in fact entirely different orders of magnitude in power.
As for who can do it, I'd say anybody with Thaumaturgy. Plus those with an appropriate Ritual (though it'd need to match their area...no Entropomancy Death Curse for the Biomancer).
What about the "power" of the target of the curse? It was noted that Cowl has survived many Death Curses in his time, which goes to show that a strong enough victim can just simply shrug off the effects in some way.
That's taken into account by their resistance skills and ability to use Consequences making them alot more difficult to effect. Also, skilled Wizards are much more capable of breaking Curses-as-Maneuvers-with-Duration.
Which is why, the more I look at it, the more I'm tempted to grant it as part of the story and just use the remaining shifts and the overall power of the practitioner as a guideline to what can actually be done. (i.e. LeFay was a full Wizard, Cassius was not; LeFay probably had more levels of Refinement, giving her more overall power; Ergo, LeFay's curse packed a bigger punch even against a stronger target)
Well, any Specialties in the area you're using to Curse would indeed apply (Entropomancy specialties to apply a Bad Luck effect, for example). Beyond that, I think the system works fine as is.
Again, just thinking out loud and getting opinions. Last thing I need is a group with a Wizard hoping to simply "kill" a foe with his Death Curse when instead he would only be capable of causing an event that would lead to death. . .or just be a minor annoyance.
Thanks again for the help!
--Crion
Well, for NPCs you can always decide how many Consequences they keep in reserve to help power the thing, and how many of those they use. And what effect they aim for.
And like I said, happy to help.
