Changeling Questions

[Falar]

Personally, I would never see someone who is fully fae as having the free will required to be a PC. It's such a low refresh option in many cases (Cobb, Elf, Goblin, Hob, Malk, Pixie, and Sylph, which is about half of what I saw) that I'm sure the game designers would have included the option if they felt that it was in keeping with the world as presented in the books. I don't feel that they did, which is why I cite that.

I do definitely agree that whatever your game has, go with it where you will. I just couldn't say I was running a Dresdenverse game if I had full fae creatures as PCs. That does not strike me as something that even works. They are entirely bound to their natures. Debts, exchanges, truth. Etc. Without a lot of work and justification, I could not see myself ever running with something like that. There are a couple ways I could see it possibly working out, but they're pretty contrived.

[drnuncheon]

Fully fae means you don't have free will. You are bound to your nature. If they meant for there to be an option to be fully fae and be a PC, then there would be a Fae template.

If the Choice was meant to make them go NPC, then they would be specifically noted (like the Red Court Infected on page 80).

Keep in mind that most of the fey we see Harry dealing with are those in the upper reaches of power: Mab, Maeve, Leanansidhe.  That's some serious refresh cost there.  And one changeling we saw go fey became the Summer Lady.  There's a lot more leeway at the lower levels - when Morgan is ready to kill Harry in Storm Front for breaking the Fourth Law, the argument is meaningless if Toot doesn't have free will (or something like it).

Last, in the game, the idea of "free will" is a sliding scale.  A White Court Virgin in a "Feet in the Water" game who kills using her Emotional Vampire abilities becomes an NPC and loses all of her free will - but the exact same character in a "Chest Deep" game is a viable PC.

[John Galt]

Just my two cents:

You should look at the lore of Dresdenverse in general, since that is what this RPG is meant to emulate.  And if you do you'll find fully Fae characters don't have the same free will mortals or changelings do.  When Harry interacts with Lily and Fix after they become Summer Lady and Knight, they are literally not allowed to help him directly.  They're not allowed to fight with him, and they're not allowed to give information to him.  Even though they WANT TO.  That is pretty much the definition of NOT HAVING A FREE WILL. 

So in game, like all games of this nature, it's entirely up to the GM if he/she wants to allow it, but as far as the lore of the novels go, and the rules suggested by game designers, a fully Fae PC isn't possible.

[Walker_Blade]

Um, while I actually agree that Fae have no free will and should generally not be PCs, your example of not having free will includes a human.  Fix may be the Summer Knight, but that IS a PC template and he does have free will, he was under a magical compulsion.

[paul_Harkonen]

On the other hand Toot, the Erkling, and (it seems to some extent) Gobblins do have an element of Free Will.  They can make choices whether or not to be involved, and can choose who to bind themselves to and how to behave.  It becomes a question of how you define free will I think.  If you mean it in the sense of "God gave us Free Will" then you are correct about Fae.  If you mean it more in the sense of, have control over their own choices and can make independent decisions it becomes less clear.  (Keep in mind that mortals can also make deals whereby the can't aid others, even if they want to and instead must find ways around it, just as Lily

(click to show/hide)

does when she lends Harry the Fireflies of Summer Fire

in Proven Guilty.

This one is going to have to just be a GM and players game time decision I think.  It seems pretty clear to me that there isn't a conclusive ruling from the book, and so it makes sense to have a discussion about it with your group.

[Dragon_Blooded]

As Luminous said: YS75 "If taking on another ability reduces your character's refresh to zero or otherwise fulfills all the "musts" of a faerie of the appropriate type, the changeling's Chice is made and he becomes a full faerie, never mortal again, and now fully subject to the will of the Faerie Courts."

The underlined portion means "If you now have all the powers of your fae parent, you are now fully fae (an NPC)."

This is your assumption, not something that's explicit on the text. Actually, the fact that the text specifically points out that a Changeling that chooses to become a full faeries "often  becoming an NPC as his power costs rise to exceed his refresh" suggests that NPC-dom is a consequence of running out of refresh and not something that always happens to Faerie PCs, otherwise that "often" would have been and "always", and the note about running out of refresh wouldn't be necessary.

Also, for all the talk about monster characters not having full will and going against the novels themes, White Court Vampires are full monsters that only look (but are not) human, and are explicitly suggested as a PC template for high refresh games. Which makes perfect sense, since Thomas would obviously be a PC. Heck, Mouse is suggested as a possible PC, and he's clearly not human.

Eduardo Penna

[luminos]

Also, for all the talk about monster characters not having full will and going against the novels themes, White Court Vampires are full monsters that only look (but are not) human, and are explicitly suggested as a PC template for high refresh games. Which makes perfect sense, since Thomas would obviously be a PC. Heck, Mouse is suggested as a possible PC, and he's clearly not human.

Eduardo Penna

Except White Court Vampires are not full monsters.  They are human.  They have a demon that shares space with their soul, but they are in fact human.

[Charlemagne XXXIII]

If the Choice was meant to make them go NPC, then they would be specifically noted (like the Red Court Infected on page 80).

Keep in mind that most of the fey we see Harry dealing with are those in the upper reaches of power: Mab, Maeve, Leanansidhe.  That's some serious refresh cost there.  And one changeling we saw go fey became the Summer Lady.  There's a lot more leeway at the lower levels - when Morgan is ready to kill Harry in Storm Front for breaking the Fourth Law, the argument is meaningless if Toot doesn't have free will (or something like it).

Last, in the game, the idea of "free will" is a sliding scale.  A White Court Virgin in a "Feet in the Water" game who kills using her Emotional Vampire abilities becomes an NPC and loses all of her free will - but the exact same character in a "Chest Deep" game is a viable PC.

I fully agree with just about everything said in this post. One thing though, Mab obviously has free will. Lea has free will or she wouldn't have turned against her nature (as a servant of the Winter Court) to plot against Mab. Sure, she isn't a viable PC, but she sure as hell has some elements of free will.

Toot and other unaligned fey obviously have free will, or they wouldn't be able to pick and choose sides. Simply being completely something other than human does not immediately make the character an NPC, just like being human doesn't make them a PC. Mouse is suggested as a potential character for cripes sake and we know he isn't human, or even apparently an actual dog for that matter.

As far as the White Court Virgin who becomes full Vamp and goes below the minimum refresh level would be interesting to see later in the game. Maybe after a certain amount of time and added refresh, the character could be reintroduced, having learned to control her Hunger. Hmmm...

Also, I might be a little biased about the idea of Fey being playable because one of my character concepts is a pixie.

[Falar]

Lea has free will or she wouldn't have turned against her nature (as a servant of the Winter Court) to plot against Mab.

I personally got the impression that the ritual athame that Cowl gave her had her enchanted and that's why she was plotting against Mab.

[neko128]

Toot and other unaligned fey obviously have free will, or they wouldn't be able to pick and choose sides.

Toot was quoted in the books as saying he had the freedom to help Harry because he had not yet been called by either side.  In addition, he had a long-standing obligation to Harry - the Pizza deliveries formed, in effect, a contract between them, and he had an onus of debt towards the Wizard.  I don't believe he has free will at all.  Hell - in Storm Front, Harry makes a big deal out of how he's bound 'round by the Faerie limitations of honesty and the rule of three and all that.

For that matter, it's mentioned a number of times that the Queens and Ladies and Mothers have no option but to follow their nature.  Exactly *how* they follow their nature is up for some debate, but their nature is the driving factor there.  The Knights are different, being Mortal, but their ties to the court allow some very strong magical compulsions to be laid upon them if desired.  But even then the Ladies are almost a bad example - look at their entry, OW41.  The Ladies are, very specifically, "the closest to the mortal world", the most closely tied to the Knights, and cannot interfere with the workings of the court in Faerie.  I interpret that as, they don't have full free will - they must follow their nature - but their nature is to be the Queen's avatar (so to speak) to the human world...  And to be most influenced by it.

Look at the paragraph on OW22 -

The Knights
can also act in affairs not directly related to
Faerie, making them the primary outlet of the
Faerie Courts for intrigue in the mortal world.
This relative freedom is, of course, enabled
by the fact that Sidhe Knights must be
mortal—i.e., human.

...Implying the Queens (including the Ladies) cannot cannot meddle in purely mortal affairs unless the Court is already involved with them.

I dunno.  I see it this way.  We know that anyone who hits zero refresh is considered non-mortal and an NPC - their nature has overtaken their will.  In my mind, then, the more refresh points of non-mortal-Stunts you have, it's more of a "sliding scale" of nature vs. free will.  A full RCV or WCV is higher refresh than an infectee or a virgin, and have less free will than them - their nature has overcome more of their being.  A Wizard, while mortal (or close enough) and with Free Will, is a slave to his nature - and his nature reinforces his existence as a Wizard.  A Werewolf is slave to his beast - his nature - as much as any Demon, even though he retains Free Will.  It's not a zero-sum game; it's shades of grey all the way down the line.

[Charlemagne XXXIII]

I just don't see the problem with allowing someone to play a fully fey character (within the bounds of your game's starting refresh) as long as they are aware and willing to take on everything that means. That means deals are binding, cold iron is a no-no, can't lie (outright), etc.

It is quite evident that any and every fey is compelled by their nature, but by that token, every human is as well. Some just have more freedom to act against their nature (higher refresh). It is evident that the wyldfae are free to act as they will because they are less powerful. They don't have the mass of responsibilities and power that the greater fey do, so they can choose. Sure, they can get called to one court or another, but that seems to be more of a draft. In a case where there was Calling going on, it would be difficult to actually play a wyldfae, but you could explain it as "I'm doing what I can for X Court by aiding the rest of the group in solving the problem", being aligned with the Wild Hunt (in which case you'd have to run with them when they went out), or some other plot related device.

If you look at Toot and the Za Brigade's actions in SK, you can see that they are only on the side of Winter because they're allied with Harry. Toot himself couldn't tell whether he'd go to Winter or Summer when he talked about the Calling with Harry earlier in the book. In a later book, Toot even works against Summer and Winter by scouting for the Gruffs and then warning Harry of Mab's approach. Toot and his compatriots choose to work with Harry (because, it's pizza!), but at any point they could have refused to work with him. Sure, he could have cast a spell or used Toot's true name to compel him into working for him, but that'd be breaking one of the laws.

[luminos]

One problem I see as far as playing a Fae goes, is that by being bound by their nature, it would be impossible to refuse a compel that was tied to that nature.  As far as gameplay mechanics goes, that tells me that the Fae are just not in the class of things meant for PC's.  A mortal with an aspect that says they never lie can buy out of his compels, but a Fae can never do the same, no matter how many fate points the GM gives them.

[neko128]

One problem I see as far as playing a Fae goes, is that by being bound by their nature, it would be impossible to refuse a compel that was tied to that nature.  As far as gameplay mechanics goes, that tells me that the Fae are just not in the class of things meant for PC's.  A mortal with an aspect that says they never lie can buy out of his compels, but a Fae can never do the same, no matter how many fate points the GM gives them.

Buying out of a compel isn't necessarily just causing the compel to not happen - it can also merely be buying out of the consequences of the compel.  Example, from YS102:

Keep in mind, though, that when you
buy out of a compel, what you’re really
buying out of is the potential complication
that could arise from what’s proposed.
You’re giving yourself the option of a
response that’s not as dramatic. So you don’t
have to say, “No, my brother doesn’t show
up on my doorstep.” You might say, “Man,
I’ve got a lot going on right now in this
story…look, here’s a fate point, and let’s say
I call an ambulance and just get him to the
hospital.”

So if you're playing a full-Fae, it may not be a matter that buying off a compel lets you escape the requirement to follow your nature - it may be simply that following your nature does not complicate the issue like the compel was originally intended to do.