Author Topic: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border  (Read 3006 times)

Offline Papa Gruff

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 536
  • in omnia paratus!
    • View Profile
Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« on: May 12, 2010, 10:04:34 PM »
Tsunami and I have a little debate going about a problem, that doesn't seem to be covered by the rules. It's about using Evocation Blocks as a Zone Borders:

Quote
Optionally, instead of block strength, you can opt to have the effect work as Armor or as a zone border instead. If you choose the Armor effect, the armor rating is equal to half  rounded down) the shifts put into the spell. The advantage to doing this is that the Armor effect only ends when the spell duration ends—the armor survives a bypassing attack. (YW 252)

Tsunami wants to use one of his rote spells to create a zone border that takes form as a stone wall. He has a conviction of 5 and an earth specialization, so the power he can use for the rote comes out as +6. So far so good. He is able to create a Zone Border. But what exactly are the qualities of said border? The rules on border state, that a high wall presents an obstacle of good difficulty to overcome and thats pretty much all they say (YW 212). But does this wall of stone also stop bullets? Does it work as armor? Is it still a block? We can't reach an agreement.

My standpoint is, that a border is a border is a border, so all it really should be able to do is work as an obstacle an divide what was formally one zone into two. The reasonable opinion of Tsunami is, that a wall of stone, should stop bullets in a way a block or armor does.

I suggested using the rules for breaking stuff (YW 321) or assign an appropriate stress track to the conjured wall (YW 320). But everything we try to come up with seams either entirely overpowered or laughably weak.

What are your opinions? How would you handle this?
in omnia peratus! ... wait a minute! ... to give anybody a rucksack? ... DAMN CORRESPONDENCE COURSE!

Offline luminos

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1234
  • Um... Hello?
    • View Profile
Re: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2010, 10:15:25 PM »
Use a border as a kind of block.  If someone wants to cross the border, they have to overcome the border value.
Lawful Chaotic

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2010, 10:19:11 PM »
I'd rule that it's a zone border only, but can be used for cover in the same way as a normal stone wall (usually by Maneuvering for a "Behind Cover" Aspect).

Offline Papa Gruff

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 536
  • in omnia paratus!
    • View Profile
Re: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2010, 10:22:12 PM »
Use a border as a kind of block.  If someone wants to cross the border, they have to overcome the border value.

but thats exactly the problem. a border is not a block and vice versa. A kind of block would have it's power reduced by 2 shifts only because the zone wide effect. that brings down the rote block to a +4. what you suggest is a movement block and that is not really the idea of a border... or is it? If it's not just a movement block it loses an other shift for being an attack block too ... so thats down to a +3 block. Yes?

I guess I should go to bed. My head is spinning ;)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 10:25:28 PM by Papa Gruff »
in omnia peratus! ... wait a minute! ... to give anybody a rucksack? ... DAMN CORRESPONDENCE COURSE!

Offline bestial warlust

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2010, 11:51:33 PM »
I'd be interested in the answer on this also. The rules don't seem clear on this

Offline luminos

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1234
  • Um... Hello?
    • View Profile
Re: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2010, 11:58:05 PM »
The rules for borders are on 212.  They act as a block against movement from one zone to another.  As such, I'd say the border value created by an evocation is equal to the shifts of power summoned up.
Lawful Chaotic

Offline GoldenH

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2010, 12:13:19 AM »
Can you block multiple things with the same Block? If so then obviously if you want to block attacks and movement then you can do so. I'd probably just use common sense, as a zone border can obviously block perception as well, like a veil. Use the overflow rules to set up multiple blocks on one zone border, or just split up the roll into different kinds of blocks. You also might want to try doing it as a kind of ward.

Offline iago

  • The Merlin
  • Posty McPostington
  • *******
  • Posts: 3071
  • I'm the site administrator.
    • View Profile
    • Deadly Fredly
Re: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2010, 02:08:22 AM »
I don't know that there will be an official answer on this one, but I would favor splitting the shifts between block-as-border and block-as-defense as a solution.
Fred Hicks
I own the board. If I start talking in my moderator voice, expect the Fist of God to be close on my heels. Red is my Fist of God voice.
www.evilhat.com * www.dresdenfilesrpg.com
Support this site: http://www.jim-butcher.com/store/

Offline arentol

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • View Profile
Re: Evocation Block: Block/Armor/Zone Border
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2010, 07:09:52 AM »
I am with Deadmanwalking (and Iago) on this one.

Spells have two natures in this game, Rule and Manifestation. The rules by which the spell was created define its direct and intended effect. The way in which the spell manifests tells us its secondary effects, and in most cases these secondary effects have no specific rules associated with them and so common sense and player/GM agreement must be used. For instance a water, fire, force, air, or earth attack spell are all exactly the same in this game in terms of how you cast them and the damage they do (Rules). However, they all manifest in completely different manners and so have different side effects, or act differently based on the enemies resistances.

In this case the rules say that the spell creates a zone border that then makes movement between zones more difficult. That is the RULES portion, and the RULES portion only. The way in which it manifests varies based on element. (One idea for each, there are many ways to represent each element though).

Fire = a (spell power*3') wide patch of fire that one must jump over to get safely to the other side. A failed roll lands you in the fire and you take damage and back out, stuck still on the wrong side. This may give the scene an "On fire" aspect, and the player may invoke this aspect to use the smoke as a chance to increase their defense roll against ranged attacks.
Force = a thin force barrier that pretty much uses the same rules wards use for bouncing people who aren't strong enough to get through, except it uses a movement roll, not an attack roll, to see if the person gets through. People trying to pass it casually will always fail their first attempt, bumping their nose most likely. No matter what the power level this probably also acts as a Block: 1 against ranged attacks, as such attacks will pass through, but are slowed and possibly deflected a little so their accuracy is effectively decreased.
Air = A bunch of miniature tornadoes that move around randomly, forcing the person passing through to dodge them or be knocked back and onto the ground. The dust and debris kicked up could be invoked to help avoid being shot.
Water = A series of waves that crash down towards the enemy, each (spell power*1.5') tall. Pushes back on those crossing the border if they fail their roll to do so. Also acts like force, providing a Block:1 most likely, as it will affect targeting and the attacks trajectory.
Earth = A wall of height equal to (spell power*1.5'), so a 4 power wall will be 6' tall. The wall has all the effects of a normal wall of that height and so can make targeting, and therefore ranged attacks, impossible. However, if the wall can be shot over or around then the player must get up close to it for a "Behind Cover" aspect to use it as a defense. There is no need for Block or armor unless the attacker tries to shoot directly through the wall. Then I would say the wall would act as Armor:1. If the PC wants it to be stronger, just suggest it is not that thick of a wall so the armor protection is minimal.

However, if the PC wanted a guaranteed block he would just have to build it into the spell by putting some points to each affect. Then perhaps it would be a small wall of earth that shifts and grows to intercept anything crossing its designated line of protection, including ranged attacks.