Crafting: Guns & Weapons

[crusher_bob]

Another possibly rules hack would be a master craftsman ability that has something like a hunger track attached to it.

So, for example, if you take master craftsman for guns, you get a hunger track that determines how much cool stuff you can do with your guns before you have to go and spend time building more stuff.

So something like:

Mastercraftsman (-2 refresh)
Gains a craft track based on your craftsman ability.
You gain 3 free stunts related to objects you can build, and each time you use one of the stunts, fill a box in the crafts track.  When the crafts track is full you can no longer use the associated stunts.
You can refill your crafts track by (doing stuff)
You can attach more stunts to your master craftsman ability on a 2 points of refresh for 3 stunts basis.

[Falar]

the step from 3 to 4(+) for some reason seems to be a lot steeper then the step from 2 to 3.

Look at the Might adjudication charts with Harry asking just about the same question and Billy more or less implying that, at least for Might, anything until you hit about 6 or so is still vanilla human and can't actually carry that much more without hitting supernatural levels. This might continue otherwise in the system. I'm not sure!

[crusher_bob]

Assuming that every step up in weapon category is supposed to represent a weapon that is around 2-4 times more powerful than the previous weapon step.

So you go from
pistols Weapon: 2
rifles: weapon: 3
50 caliber sniper rifles (and similar) weapon: 4
~25mm cannon: weapon: 5
and tank shells are something like weapon: 8 or weapon: 9

So moving up from weapon 3 to weapon 4 actually is a bigger step than moving from weapon 2 to weapon 3.

[Papa Gruff]

Look at the Might adjudication charts with Harry asking just about the same question and Billy more or less implying that, at least for Might, anything until you hit about 6 or so is still vanilla human and can't actually carry that much more without hitting supernatural levels. This might continue otherwise in the system. I'm not sure!

Actually according to the chart weapons 4+ are well within the limits of mortal capability. The problem is, that the chart leaves us with an open end. "Battlefield weaponry" leaves us with a gigantic field of possibility. Guns in general are to diverse to fit into the 1 to 4+ chart. There simply is a huge difference between a pump action shot gun and big game hunting riffle... And yes, I know that this is basically because of the difference in ammunition used.

Nevertheless you all have to agree that a shotgun (weapon:3) will probably not kill a rhino or an elephant, while a big game hunting rifle (weapon:3) can without a doubt. Problem. Not in the rules. I can see now why the gun mechanics in Shadowrun are so hideously out of proportion ... 

   

[Falar]

Well, I think you're not quite seeing one of the main draws of the Fate system, which is the level of abstraction that it offers. We don't need to have long, detailed discussions about what gun is the best in which situation, because they're all more or less equal. There's no way to differentiate them mechanically, so it becomes more a matter of which is cinematically more suited to your character or the situation.

Although I'd argue that a big game hunting rifle would allow you to throw a maneuver on a target of an "In My Sights", which is practically +2 damage right there. You could possibly put something on it along the lines of Weapon:3 (Weapon:4 against Hulking Size opponents) as well, but that is veering strictly away from the main draw of Fate, that being the enormous level of abstraction.

Baaaaasically, I think what you want to do is write a whole new guns and weapons supplement for Fate using your own versions of their rules. Where you set the granularity finer so you can make distinctions like that. I'm not sure how well you'll be able to do that without either making skills more or less obsolete and guns/weapons dominant or make people/things much more durable. Basically, as it stands now, unless someone has some level of special, you can take them out with a single shot from most guns. Hell, even a rhino is pretty fair pickings for an instant or maybe two-round take down. Weapon:3, In My Sights, Roll of +2 or better, and unless he takes a consequence of some sort, he's taken out. And what normal rhino would think to take a consequence?

[Papa Gruff]

Well, I think you're not quite seeing one of the main draws of the Fate system, which is the level of abstraction that it offers. We don't need to have long, detailed discussions about what gun is the best in which situation, because they're all more or less equal. There's no way to differentiate them mechanically, so it becomes more a matter of which is cinematically more suited to your character or the situation.

I'm well aware of the diversity Fate offers and I'm quite looking forward to an end of bickering and consulting mile long weapons charts. The thread started out as a question about how to reflect refinement in crafting of guns. I guess in bringing more attention to the damage aspect I myself have derailed it somewhat.

Although I'd argue that a big game hunting rifle would allow you to throw a maneuver on a target of an "In My Sights", which is practically +2 damage right there. You could possibly put something on it along the lines of Weapon:3 (Weapon:4 against Hulking Size opponents) as well, but that is veering strictly away from the main draw of Fate, that being the enormous level of abstraction.

Fair point. Raising damage by maneuver is in the book.

Baaaaasically, I think what you want to do is write a whole new guns and weapons supplement for Fate using your own versions of their rules. Where you set the granularity finer so you can make distinctions like that. I'm not sure how well you'll be able to do that without either making skills more or less obsolete and guns/weapons dominant or make people/things much more durable. Basically, as it stands now, unless someone has some level of special, you can take them out with a single shot from most guns. Hell, even a rhino is pretty fair pickings for an instant or maybe two-round take down. Weapon:3, In My Sights, Roll of +2 or better, and unless he takes a consequence of some sort, he's taken out. And what normal rhino would think to take a consequence?

In a way you might be right. I agree with you that it could be taken care of by a set refined set of rules. I also share your concern of how well this can be implemented without changing a lot of other stuff. In the end Fate might be not cut out for diversity in guns. What bugs me is that it's obviously possible for other weapons like swords and such...

[crusher_bob]

Eh? just like it's possible to have weapon 3 pistols, it's possible to have weapon:3 one handed swords.  So cops with Glocks are using weapon:2 pistols, and Dirty Harry is using a weapon: 3 pistol.  So, in the example of stuff like warden swords and the swords of the cross, they are all at the top end of one handed swords, so they are weapon 3.

So, if you wanted something like an elephant gun, or a 50 caliber rifle, or a buffalo gun, or something like that, it would be weapon: 4.  So if you wanted a 2-handed warden sword, for example, you could say it was weapon 4, but remember then you won't have another hand free to use and focus items.  Since the normal warden combat stance is sword + staff (or sword + pistol for some of the newer ones) they like the fact that their swords only need one  hand.  Their main use is cutting though enchantments anyway and making the sword OMG! hueg is not going to help with that.

[Falar]

An option for that, Daddy-o Goat, would be to do some kind of 'roll five fudge dice, take the highest four' kind'f deal. That would indicate a fine weapon to me. Although it might be better to just give it a stunt attached to it and make it an Item of Stunt. Maybe add a little house-rule to the system to have 'most excellent' weapons/guns that have stunts attached and can be used by any character and don't have a minimum of -1 to them, but a maximum of -0. So you could have something like:

Best God-Damn Buffalo Gun
+1 Item Discount
-1 Stunt: +1 to damage against Hulking Size Targets, +1 to damage against armored opponents
It Is What It Is: Weapon: 3 rifle

[Papa Gruff]

Eh? just like it's possible to have weapon 3 pistols, it's possible to have weapon:3 one handed swords.  So cops with Glocks are using weapon:2 pistols, and Dirty Harry is using a weapon: 3 pistol.  So, in the example of stuff like warden swords and the swords of the cross, they are all at the top end of one handed swords, so they are weapon 3.

So, if you wanted something like an elephant gun, or a 50 caliber rifle, or a buffalo gun, or something like that, it would be weapon: 4.  So if you wanted a 2-handed warden sword, for example, you could say it was weapon 4, but remember then you won't have another hand free to use and focus items.  Since the normal warden combat stance is sword + staff (or sword + pistol for some of the newer ones) they like the fact that their swords only need one  hand.  Their main use is cutting though enchantments anyway and making the sword OMG! hueg is not going to help with that.

I can't dispute most of this. Technically you are not entirely right about one handed swords. Not any one handed sword is capable of being weapon: 3. The chart clearly says that (YW 202). They can ONLY be weapon: 3 if they are really well crafted.

And yes. You are right. By that rule a exceptional crafted two handed sword is weapon: 4. How is that any different from a well crafted gun being weapon: 4?! I'm glad in a way. Let's get back to the crafting aspect here! How is it somehow OK for an edged weapon to gain a hole damage value just saying it's due to the high skill of the crafter, but for the same rule not to apply to guns.

When we don't differentiate and a weapon: 3 is always a weapon: 3, then why do we differentiate between gun weapon: 2/3 and edged weapon: 2/3?

[Papa Gruff]

An option for that, Daddy-o Goat, would be to do some kind of 'roll five fudge dice, take the highest four' kind'f deal. That would indicate a fine weapon to me.

That's a cool idea! Rolling five dice or re-rolling a fail might do it. Hmm...

[neko128]

Okay, going back to the veeeery first post, the section on Warden swords actually says (YW303, old copy): "A Warden Sword counts as a Weapon: 3 sword at minimum in nearly all circumstances."  This doesn't jive, in my mind, with the weapon rating being because of crafting - it sounds more like a side effect of the enchantment.  Is there another reference, or is that the quote you're basing your W:3 crafted sword stuff on?

The rules on crafting say that, as a rule, higher-quality items are harder to destroy, not necessarily more effective.  And honestly, sitting and thinking about it, I'd say that a higher-quality sword would be easier to control and hit with, not necessarily prone to doing more damage.  *hitting* them is typically a matter of control, strength, and - to a lesser extent - sharpness, while damage once you've hit them is much more a matter of weight and the force behind them.

Maybe upgrading the weapon rating is just the wrong way to go about it?  It makes more sense to me for almost any high-quality weapon to be granting you a skill bonus, not a pure damage bonus.

[luminos]

A skill bonus is even more powerful than a damage bonus, since skill to hit determines the margin of effectiveness for damage purposes.

[Papa Gruff]

(For those who are curious, yes, a Warden Sword slightly bends the rules in that we allow it two different spell effects to be selected from when making use of the 3 daily uses instead of just one spell effect. But Luccio had a special talent in her first body, after all, and that's gone now; consider the uniqueness and limited supply of the items to play into that. Also, the Weapon:3 thing with the sword, that's just because they're really well made swords, ala the result of a lot of time investment and a killer Craftsmanship roll.)

This is basically what this thread is all about...

... accuracy as a skill bonus might be a good idea as was said in this thread before. But I'm afraid that it is even worse then the damage bonus...

[Falar]

Skill bonus is always better than a power bonus. Because it matters whether you hit or not. +1 Skill is the same as +1 to hit and +1 to damage ... at the same time!

Although that brings to mind adding a +1 to hit, but it only counts for hitting and it doesn't apply for damage. Which would mean it would turn a miss by -1 into a hit, but unless you've got a Weapon:X, it's not going to do any damage in the first place.

[Jeckel]

Although that brings to mind adding a +1 to hit, but it only counts for hitting and it doesn't apply for damage. Which would mean it would turn a miss by -1 into a hit, but unless you've got a Weapon:X, it's not going to do any damage in the first place.

That is how I've been handling it. For example, a dagger from my current game.

Magical Copper Dagger:1, gives +1 to Weapons Skill, but bonus doesn't apply to damage

Admittedly, the dagger hasn't been used in combat much, but from what I have seen it works fairly well.