Crafting: Guns & Weapons

[Papa Gruff]

I have an other question related to crafting.

The PC/NPC that I plan to create for the occasional tag along with my group is a master gunsmith. I want him to be able to make guns of exceptional quality for his vampire hunting and to sell in the little custom gun shop that he runs as his day job.

The rules for crafting mundane objects are easy enough. Basically, given enough time, my PC can create any item/gun of any quality he likes. But how would that reflect in the Item? There is the example of the warden swords which are crafted so well that they gain a damage bonus. Would that apply to a exceptionally good gun too?

Unfortunately the rules for crafting are a bit weak when it comes to the everyday stuff. What do you think? Can the rules for the magical item crafting be modified to apply to mundane crafting?

[crusher_bob]

This is probably done best as an aspect.  Something like "My guns are the best" (or whatever).  So you can invoke it to get a bonus when shooting someone, and it can be compelled when a gang of thieves come looking for your stuff.

As for making 'mundane' guns with a higher weapon rating, that's probably right out.  Considering that both a .44 magnum pistol and an assault rifle are weapon: 3.

It might be possible to make an item of power gun that give stunts though, something like:

Abe Lincoln's Repeater (Total -1 Refresh)
Able Lincoln's Repeater counts as Weapon 3, both when shooting and when used in close combat.
+2 Item of Power (A Henry repeating rifle)
+0 Four Score and seven years ago...
Abe Lincoln's Repeater satisfies the catch condition for Skavis Court Vampires toughness (both bullets and just hitting them with it)
-1 State of the Union
When defending against social or mental attacks with Discipline, any of your aspects (such as consequences or other temporary  or  permanent  aspects)  that  get  tagged provide only a +1. If the attacker chooses to tag for a reroll, you may “lock down” one of his dice, leaving him only the other three to re-roll.
-1 The ballot is stronger than the bullet.
When  using  Presence  to  command  a  group, gain +1 on the effort. Further, your efforts  to  coordinate  a  group  are  efficient, moving one time increment faster than normal.
-1 You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independence.
Gain +2 to Alertness when it is used to determine initiative.

[Papa Gruff]

This is probably done best as an aspect.  Something like "My guns are the best" (or whatever).  So you can invoke it to get a bonus when shooting someone, and it can be compelled when a gang of thieves come looking for your stuff.

That seems possible but it's just some kind of workaround to my problem. Following the rules this would only work for my PC and not for his customers who don't share a similar Aspect.

As for making 'mundane' guns with a higher weapon rating, that's probably right out.  Considering that both a .44 magnum pistol and an assault rifle are weapon: 3.

Why do you think it's right out? A normal one handed sword is just a weapon: 2. The warden swords, as I understand it, gain their +1 damage only due to their formidable quality and not through enchantment. Why shouldn't that be possible for an exceptional gun too?

It might be possible to make an item of power gun that give stunts though, something like:

Abe Lincoln's Repeater (Total -1 Refresh)
Able Lincoln's Repeater counts as Weapon 3, both when shooting and when used in close combat.
+2 Item of Power (A Henry repeating rifle)
+0 Four Score and seven years ago...
Abe Lincoln's Repeater satisfies the catch condition for Skavis Court Vampires toughness (both bullets and just hitting them with it)
-1 State of the Union
When defending against social or mental attacks with Discipline, any of your aspects (such as consequences or other temporary  or  permanent  aspects)  that  get  tagged provide only a +1. If the attacker chooses to tag for a reroll, you may “lock down” one of his dice, leaving him only the other three to re-roll.
-1 The ballot is stronger than the bullet.
When  using  Presence  to  command  a  group, gain +1 on the effort. Further, your efforts  to  coordinate  a  group  are  efficient, moving one time increment faster than normal.
-1 You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independence.
Gain +2 to Alertness when it is used to determine initiative.

Of your ideas this one is probably the best, but it's clearly against the rules. As I understand it, Stunts are generally of limits for use in Items of Power (they are Items of Power and not Items of Stunts after all). Secondly there is the problem, that an Item of Power has to have a purpose under which it's powers have to be used. There is no bargain to be made with a customarily crafted gun. There are no rules to follow...

Nevertheless, I like the Repeater yet I don't know if it's valid in terms of game mechanics. It might be possible to adapt this set of rules to make it compatible though .

[Wordmaker]

Well it would take only a small houserule to allow an "Item of Quality" Stunt to be purchaseable, allowing Stunts or Skill bonuses for an item.

Since such items would be of very high quality and an obvious major benefit, this character's association with the other PCs could be used as justification for them buying the Item of Quality (Gun) stunt.

Perhaps, as an alternative, create a tree of Stunts along the lines of "Master Craftsman" built to allow for creation of a mundane version of Focus Items and Enchanted Items? Base the costs and rules in some way off of Thaumaturgy for how many slots of items he can have, and how to build more. A rifle made by your character, for example, could provide a +1 bonus for maneuvers or attacks from more than 2 zones from your target.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'd allow exceptional melee weaons to be raised one weapon rating via Craftsmanship but not Guns. My reasoning is simple: a sword's weapon rating comes from the sword itself, how sharp, well balanced, and so on it is, but a gun's comes from the bullets you load in it.

Now, it would make some logical sense to have exceptional guns add +1 to the Guns skill of anyone using them (since they aim so much better and so on), but that's a mechanical minefield that I wouldn't want to open up. Ditto the Items of Quality mentioned above.

Personally, I'd handle it with a high rating in Craftsmanship, the Aspect mentioned above, and a Stunt ('My Own Guns') granting him +1 whenever he's using a gun of his own design.

You can also do things like make a gun pretty much untraceable or fully automatic if you've got that kind of skill, and those are both really nice in and of themselves.

He could also likely make armor-piercing ammo (which I'd say ignores a point or two of armor), a normally illegal ammunition type.

[neko128]

I'd allow exceptional melee weaons to be raised one weapon rating via Craftsmanship but not Guns. My reasoning is simple: a sword's weapon rating comes from the sword itself, how sharp, well balanced, and so on it is, but a gun's comes from the bullets you load in it.

Well, I'll argue this to a limited extent.  The quality of a gun can have a *lot* to do with how well it works, and even more with how well it works *for you*.  For example, poorly machined or poorly maintained parts can rub, chafe, wear, and jam.  Worn or poorly machined barrels may have the rifling worn out (worse aim), or even have burrs and scars that badly mar the bullet and cause it to travel slower or tumble in the air.  Poorly designed guns can be unwieldy or uncomfortable to use.  Over-heated or abused barrels can warp (though depending on just how badly, this could also cause a catastrophic failure of the firearm).

On the other hand, customized firearm grips can make the gun more comfortable and easier to control; people have different preferences in weight distribution (heavier barrels make the firearm easier to control with recoil but harder to aim free-hand); some people prefer different types of sights; people have different preferences on trigger resistance...

And I'll also point out that while pistols and rifles may be able to chamber the same bullets for matching calibres, the performance from a long- and a short-barreled firearm will be radically different in most cases.

[Deadmanwalking]

Absolutely! But you're talking reliability and accuracy. Not raw damage. Enhanced relaibility should just mean the GM won't Compel you to have the gun malfunction, and I mentioned the possibility of enhanced accuracy and how that ran into rules issues if implemented. Raw damage is what Weapon rating represents.

As for the pistol/rifle difference you're quite right, but that's two weapons with different Weapon ratings, not one who's Weapon rating is enhanced.

[arentol]

No matter how good the gun is a 185 grain +P .45ACP hollow point is a 185 grain +P .45ACP hollow point. A higher quality gun can increase accuracy slightly, decrease the chance of jamming by a great deal, and possibly increase the velocity of the round by an very small and irrelevant amount... But it doesn't make the round do more damage.

I would focus instead on specialized self-loaded rounds, such as ones made from iron and inherited silver. That is much more realistic and functionally useful... Don't get Hollywood stupid though and start trying to put acid or liquid UV rays in glass vials into the rounds... Though you might be able to do something vaguely similar if you have a good crafting wizard available.

[neko128]

Absolutely! But you're talking reliability and accuracy. Not raw damage. Enhanced relaibility should just mean the GM won't Compel you to have the gun malfunction, and I mentioned the possibility of enhanced accuracy and how that ran into rules issues if implemented. Raw damage is what Weapon rating represents.

As for the pistol/rifle difference you're quite right, but that's two weapons with different Weapon ratings, not one who's Weapon rating is enhanced.

Fair enough. 

[neko128]

No matter how good the gun is a 185 grain +P .45ACP hollow point is a 185 grain +P .45ACP hollow point. A higher quality gun can increase accuracy slightly, decrease the chance of jamming by a great deal, and possibly increase the velocity of the round by an very small and irrelevant amount... But it doesn't make the round do more damage.

I would focus instead on specialized self-loaded rounds, such as ones made from iron and inherited silver. That is much more realistic and functionally useful... Don't get Hollywood stupid though and start trying to put acid or liquid UV rays in glass vials into the rounds... Though you might be able to do something vaguely similar if you have a good crafting wizard available.

Or fill paintballs with holy water and garlic?

Well, the whole "sunlight rounds" thing - in my mind - comes down to whether you're dealing with something vulnerable to UV rays or vulnerable to Sunlight.  The former is much easier to reproduce without magic than the latter.

Actually, right now, I'm having a "Anita Blake" moment - there are several long discussions about self-made anti-vampire rounds.  I think the one that "won" was a silver-coated hollow-point filled with holy water and garlic cloves, and then stopped up with wax.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, I'd require Sponsored Magic of an appropriate type to actually do real sunlight (Seelie Magic being the example I have in mind), normal magic just won't cut it.

[drnuncheon]

Yeah, I'd require Sponsored Magic of an appropriate type to actually do real sunlight (Seelie Magic being the example I have in mind), normal magic just won't cut it.

Page 307 actually has the example for Harry's "sunburst in a handkerchief" - no sponsor necessary, just happiness.

[Deadmanwalking]

Page 307 actually has the example for Harry's "sunburst in a handkerchief" - no sponsor necessary, just happiness.

Hmm, you're right. My bad.

Okay, I'd alow it on items, but stick to requiring Sponsored Magic to do it as Evocation.

[arentol]

Don't get Hollywood stupid

Repeated for emphasis since everyone apparently missed it last time. 

[Papa Gruff]

Hm ... I'm still nor really satisfied by the ideas presented here.

I guess you guys are right by stating, that an exceptionally well crafted weapon shouldn't be raised up one level on the weapons chart. Obviously it would be to powerful since the step from 3 to 4(+) for some reason seems to be a lot steeper then the step from 2 to 3. Yet I really don't know why that is. Perhaps it's because the definition of the weapons chart gets a bit open ended and blurry at 4+.

Making it a Stunt/Aspect seems like a good idea but it again really doesn't reflect the nature of a well crafted gun. I'm not after some munchkin bonus here. What I want to think about is how to translate exceptional craftsmanship of mundane items into something that exceeds pure flavor. This even doesn't concern only guns, it's really expandable to all kinds of things: armor, vehicles, steel framed doors, etcetera ...

Perhaps I will go the way mentioned here and try to think of something other then a damage bonus when it comes to guns. The Skill bonus is a nice idea, but wouldn't that be even more powerful then the +1 damage?

As to ammunition: that the PC I have in mind makes customary ammo is pretty much a given. But in terms of game mechanics this seems just like an exploitation of Catches and doesn't reflect the his talent at gun making.

I'll have to ponder this one a bit more. Perhaps my gamers will have a good idea and maybe we'll try around a bit. I still hope for a neat suggestion, so don't hesitate if you come up with something good.