Author Topic: Evocation questions  (Read 4540 times)

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Evocation questions
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2010, 06:43:09 AM »
Long post is long.

From a fluff to rules perspective, I'd prefer answer of "why does Harry do X?" to not be "because Harry is basically an idiot," when we totally don't get in text evidence to back that up.  For example, you can make plenty of 'anti-lore' claims against Harry, because he is quite wrong about stuff in the text.  But we don't really have any in text claims about how Harry is bad at whipping ass in combat evocation.  So, we want the rules for combat evocation to not totally shaft Harry for using one element for attack, and a different element for defense (and get nothing else out of splitting up his elements like that).

Depending on how you are allowed to move points around, you are totally rewarded for specializing in one element up to 5 refinement with the restrictive interpretation about how to allocate points, and up to 10 refinement with the loose one.  And that's only with putting points into specializations.  If we want to go with refinement for more powerful focus items, we can totally put more points into kicking ass with just one element.

How's that work?
There are two ways we can interpret how you are able to have specializations. 

The loose way: as long as your point total is ok, and your pyramid is ok, you are good.  So under the loose interpretation (Spirit Power +6, Spirit Control +5, Fire power +4, Fire Control +3, Water Power +2, Water Control +1) is totally ok.

The strict way: you are limited to increasing your specializations one point at the time, and you need to be able to show a valid path from your current specialization allocation to your stating point.  So (+6, ..., +1) is not OK, because you can't get from that total -2 points to another valid specialization allocation.

So, under the loose way, we can pay 10 refinement for a +6 and +5 in the elements we care about, and not even have to buy the other evocation elements.  And since evocations elements are all interchangeable anyway, why would we want to waste points on that?

Under the strict way, we have to go something like this:
Start
Spirit power +1
Refinement 1
Spirit Power +2, Spirit Control +1
Refinement 2
Spirit Power +2, Spirit Control +1, Fire Power +1, Fire Control +1
Refinement 3
Spirit Control +3, Spirit Power +2, Fire Power +1, Fire Control +1
Refinement 4
Spirit Control +3, Spirit Power +2, Water Power +2, Fire Power +1, Fire Control +1
Refinement 5
Spirit Power +4, Spirit Control +3, Water Power +2, Fire Power +1, Fire Control +1

And I think that's as far as you can go without buying other elements.  Someone who is better at playing Tower of Hanoi may come with with a path to +5,+4, etc. without going over 6 total places to put bonuses, but I don't think there is one.

There is probably a way to get more power at the same refresh level by stacking focus items and evocation specializations, but I'm not too interested in finding it right now.

But 5 refinement devoted solely to Evocation is a pretty big deal.  If we got with the loose interpretation, 10 refinement spent on evocation probably gets you into range to throw down with members of the senior council.

We'll take a look using the strict interpretation of specialization advancement, up to five refinement.

We'll take our evocation specialization wizard Conviction 3, Discipline 4
Evo specialization of Spirit Power +1
Focus items for +1 spirit (offence & defense; power & control) (4 slots)

What does he look like at different refinement levels (and assuming he isn't increasing his skills)?

“Other stuff” refers to his most powerful element combination without foci.

Start (Power, Control)
Offense (5,5) Defense (5,5), Other Stuff (4,4)
Refinement 1
Offense (6,6) Defense (6,6), Other Stuff (5,5)
Refinement 2
Offense (6,6) Defense (6,6),  Other Stuff (5,5), plus more skill in elements we don't care about
Refinement 3
Offense (6,8) Defense (6,8),  Other Stuff (5,7), we can switch how our focus items are allocated to get to (7,7)
Refinement 4
Offense (6,8) Defense (6,8), Other Stuff (5,7), plus more skill in elements we don't care about
Refinement 5
Offense (8,8) Defense (8,8), Other Stuff (7,7)

Now, what about the guy who tries to attack and defend with two different elements?

We'll take our evocation specialization wizard Conviction 3, Discipline 4
We assume he'll attack with fire and defend with water.  He wants to be even in attack and defense, but will favor defense if  he has to choose.

Evo specialization of Water Power +1
Focus items from +1 (offence & defense; power & control) (4 slots)
Start
Water Power +1
Offense (4,5) Defense (5,5), Other stuff (4,4)

Refinement 1
Water Power +2, Water Control +1
Offense (4,5) Defense (6,6), Other Stuff (5,5)

Refinement 2
Water Power +2, Water Control +1, Fire Power 1, Fire Control 1
Offense (5,6) Defense (6,6), Other Stuff (5,5)

Refinement 3
Water Power +2, Water Control +1, Fire Power 2, Fire Control 1, Earth Power 1
Offense (6,6) Defense (6,6), Other Stuff (5,5)

Refinement 4
Water Power +3, Water Control +2, Fire Power 2, Fire Control 1, Earth Power1
Offense (6,6) Defense (7,7), Other Stuff (6,6)

Refinement 5
Water Power +3, Water Control +2, Fire Power 4, Fire Control 1, Earth Power1
Offense (8,6) Defense (7,7), Other Stuff (6,6 or 7,5), can shift offensive focus item for (7,7)

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So how do they compare?
Start:
Specialist
Offense (5,5) Defense (5,5), Other Stuff (4,4)
2 Element Guy
Offense (4,5) Defense (5,5), Other stuff (4,4)

After 5 Refinement
Specialist:
Offense (8,8) Defense (8,8), Other Stuff (7,7)
2 Element Guy
Offense (7,7) Defense (7,7), Other Stuff (6,6 or 7,5)

So, at the start, 2 element guy really isn’t that far behind specialist guy.  But after 5 refinement, 2 element guy basically has to invoke an aspect every turn to keep up with specialist guy.  Does 2 element guy at least get some advantage of being able to do (7,5) Fire and (6,6) Water evocations compared to spirit guy being able to do (7,7) spirit stuff?  Not when all elements are equal, no.

With my proposed changes, 2 element guy can at least match spirit guy in area of effect with fire, and he has counterspells at (7,5) to compare to spirit guy’s veils (at 7,7).

---

Note that the same dynamic doesn’t apply to thaumaturgy specializations because they do different things.  You can’t substitute a divination of a bit of biomancy.

But even if the evocation elements did totally different things, there is still the incentive to specialize because your best evocation element determines both your attack and defense.

---

Another idea that I don’t have time to think about right now, is to make the advantages of different elements even greater, but add something like a negative aspect to each one that the GM can compel.

For example:
Fire, great for blasting, but hard to control
Fire can get a free area upgrade if you want one.
The negative aspect of fire is that tends to spread.  When you cast a fire spell, the GM can use a compel against you to cause the spell to effect one additional area.

Example, you are in combat, and call up a fire shield.  The GM uses the compel against you to make your fire shield protect some of the enemies as well.

Earth: Lasts a long time, but slow
Earth spells get a free duration increase. 
If you spend shifts for additional increase, you can another one free (so a Power 5 earth spell would be Power 5, duration 1; and could be made power 4, duration 3, or power 3, duration 4)
The negative aspect of earth is that it is very slow to get going.  When you cast an earth spell, the GM can use a compel against you to make you go last in the exchange.

Example, you want to use earth to call up a block to make a zone border.  The GM uses the compel against you to make you go last in this exchange, so maybe some of the baddies with have the chance to cross the zone before you can get the block up.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Evocation questions
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2010, 07:07:23 AM »
Long post is long.

From a fluff to rules perspective, I'd prefer answer of "why does Harry do X?" to not be "because Harry is basically an idiot," when we totally don't get in text evidence to back that up.  For example, you can make plenty of 'anti-lore' claims against Harry, because he is quite wrong about stuff in the text.  But we don't really have any in text claims about how Harry is bad at whipping ass in combat evocation.  So, we want the rules for combat evocation to not totally shaft Harry for using one element for attack, and a different element for defense (and get nothing else out of splitting up his elements like that).

Actually, Harry does in fact repeatedly say he's shitty at Evocation in general...right up until the end of Grave Peril, when he eats the Nightmare and gets somewhat better at it.

Now, later on he gets better. Alot better, actually. But that's with quite a bit of Refresh (most spent on non-Evocation areas, but still) under his belt.

The way I have him statted, he's got a total of 6 points in Evocation specialities, a +1 Control and +2 Power each in Spirit and Fire. He's a 7 shift evocater in either area, with Focus Items. If he'd focused could he be an 8 shift Evocater in one of the two? Yeah, he could. So? Most things 7 shifts won't stop, 8 shifts won't stop either, and he'd lose a hell of a lot of flexibility. As is he can create ice, burn or smash foes to death, do a hell of a veil when he wants, and is generally not only good but unpredictable.

If your character is a master of Fire and doesn't use anything else, expect the villains to set up their next battle with you somewhere with sprinklers and alot of water. Ditto (though in different ways) for the other elements. Expect your known proclivity for a particular element to be used against you in all kinds of ways. If you branch out a bit, you'll be known to have varying specialties and be much harder to pull this shit on.