What's the most munchkin character you can build?

[JustinS]

But lets drop the matter of uber-powerfull summons for the moment. Does nobody see a problem with summoning an Army?
100 hundred magical constructs on the powerlevel of an Hellhound? (little more of 8 hours nonstop summoning and binding).
Its not as problematic as the mass summoning of Powerfull Things and workable. But its hard on the overpowered mark.

Well, who's army was it to start with? How are you going to get that many names?

Things you can summon are likely in the lore declaration range. Or research in a good lore library. Binder's pack of whatnots is likely the result of a stunt or two (bring in the minion rules and stunts from spirit of the century)

Alternately, if you want to be able to bring in a pack of minions or whatnot, without unexpected trouble, summon and talk with a power that has an army. Make a deal to be able to summon their minions and have them obey.

[pogoman]

But lets drop the matter of uber-powerfull summons for the moment. Does nobody see a problem with summoning an Army?
100 hundred magical constructs on the powerlevel of an Hellhound? (little more of 8 hours nonstop summoning and binding).
Its not as problematic as the mass summoning of Powerfull Things and workable. But its hard on the overpowered mark.

I'd also like to throw out the idea that any character who routinely spends 8 hours summoning and binding an army is A) not being played realistically, B) being given problems that are too simplistic (and thus CAN be solved just by summoning a giant army), and C) is being given far too much time to deal with their problems.

Although I suppose I should add that I personally don't have a problem with the fact that the rules allow for a character who can summon an army.  Why?  Because that's freaking awesome.  It shouldn't be anything that a (player) character can do on the fly every day, but once in a blue moon when the situation gets bad?  Yeah.  Heck, if I were a GM, I'd be willing to plot an entire adventure around putting their character in a position to do that.  Just to allow the player/character to have that shining moment of awesome, the kind that you still talk about months later.  Character should be allowed to be super-powerful occasionally, whether by burning a metric ton of fate points or by cashing in on the powers they spent their refresh on.

Also, it might be cool to make this a chance to show exactly how far a character will go to get something.  What does it take to force your character into a situation where they cash in all 100 True Names they've spent years gathering?  How much debt will they take?  Will the bound creatures try to take revenge later?  Something on this scale would probably be worth an aspect change.

So bottom line: summoning an army could be fantastic character development, as well as completely awesome conceptually.  And there are some very good reasons why it'll be difficult to do it with any sort of regularity.  So I'm on the side that says it's not a problem.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm not saying you should not allow it. But the moment you need to invent rules you have a House Rule. No problem with an House Rule. You should only be honest about it: Yeah the rules are unclear about that, this is how I rule it.

The rules aren’t clear. Therefore a personal ruling isn’t a House Rule…it’s how you rule it. House Rules are, generally speaking, rules changes, not filling in empty spots using the general rules (like the Thaumaturgy section).

I should note that I actually do diverge from the authors in a few areas, and have House Rules there, but really, I think on this one I’m doing the RAI, and not diverging from the RAW, and thus it’s not really a House Rule.

So you could say: The rules say you should make houserules when needed, but its still an House Rule.

Not precisely. But we’re arguing semantics here as much as anything.

Thats Harrys (an law-breaking Wizard!) perspective talking here.

True. And who better would know what the Wardens occasionally punish people for?

If Wardens could kill non-law violating Wizards without repercussions, only because they dont like his attitude...

And then there’s Bob talking about ‘convicting on suspicion’ and the actual evidence indicating that they might kill Harry merely for who his brother is. Wardens are given very broad latitude in their duties. They likely wouldn’t kill someone with a Bound Golem…but they might free the creature which is (to quote Harry in regards to demon summoners) ‘classic Coucil tactics’.

Then some Warden would do that and we would have an Civil War within the White Council. They cant have unlimited power, otherwise every powerhungry would be Warlock would try to get into the outfit.

Oh, if their Warden Commander finds a Warden abusing their power they can destroy their career if not kill them outright, so it’s risky. But I’m talking about an NPC Warden doing this to a PC here, not a PC getting away with it, necessarily.

Well you brought the mistreadment of Golems on the table. And its all in the eye of the beholder...
I bet those golems dont have an 38,5 hour work week. They dont get paid. Must fight to the dead...

True. Though considering their AIs are duplicate fragments of Ancient Mai’s own mind, what makes you think they are bound, or need to be?

Its dangerous, you dont do it if there isnt a clear law violation.
So the Senior Council is out of reach for the Wardens.

Yes, as a rule, it is indeed.

How about some random 400 years old Wizard, who is not on the senior Council?
(And who dont have the modern view of what is an abuse and what is normal.)

Um, again, I’m talking about NPC reactions to a PC’s actions.  Unless you’re playing a 400 year old Wizard, this example is irrelevant. Wardens, like cops and soldiers everywhere, treat their superiors and important civilians quite a bit more carefully than they do some punk kid.

Yeah, got them confused.

No worries.

Here another try of an Summoning Character, this one with more justification for the social side of Summoning and Binding.

High Aspect: Mortal General for the War Department of the Chinese Hell as described in this books
Trouble: Stupid Orders
Other Aspects: Demons under my Command

Marked by Power -1
Item of Power: Scepter of Command (Spear) +2
Human Form +1
(when using the Item, the Gerneral shows full body (glowing) Tatoos which proclaim his allegiance to the War Department)
Ritual: Summoning and Binding -2
Refinement x 2 -2 (4 Extra Focus Item Slots = 6 Item Slots) +5 Complexity +1 Controll
-------------
Total -1 Refresh
Refinement -1 (2 Focus Item Slots converted into 4 Enchanted Item Slots)
Physical Immunity (only against Mortal Magic) -3
Supernatural Recovery -4
Catch: Wood +3
-------------
Total -1 Refresh
Lawbreaker First (multiple times) -2

Total Refresh Cost of Char. -9


Summoned Item Crafter:
-3 Thaumaturgy +1 Item Crafting Power (Focus Items +2 Wards Complexity)
-21 Refinement
  +6 Item Frequency,
  +5 Item Power,
  +5 Wards Complexity
  +4 Wards Controll, +4 Transformation Complexity
  +3 Transformation Controll, +3 Divination Complexity
  +2 Divination Controll, +2 Summoning Complexity, +2 Summoning Controll, +2 Conjuration Complexity
  +1 Conjuration Controll, +1 Transportation Complexity, +1 Transportaion Controll, +1 Veils Complexity
-2 Inhuman Strenght
-2 Inhuman Thoughness
-2 Inhuman Recovery
+3 Catch: Wood

Skills:
Superb +5: Lore, Resourcess
Great +4: Discipline, Conviction


The General orders his Magic Items by this Demon (and his Home is warded by this Demon).
Tai Chi clothes of hellish Protection (Block +10 or Armor +5 / 7 uses per session).
Silk gloves of Sudden painfull Death (to hit with Guns, Damage +8 / 9 uses per session).
Kukri of Dimensional Rending (opens door into the NeverNever +6 effect / 11 uses per session).
Facemask of Skulking (Veil +8 / 9 uses per session)

Bodyguard/Guide in the NeverNever
-4 Supernatural Speed
-2 Supernatural Strenght
-4 Supernatural Recovery
+3 Catch: Wood
-8 Physical Immunity
Catch +2: Taoistic holy relicts
-1 Claws
-1 Flesh Mask


Skills:
Superb +5: Lore, Awareness
Great +4: Fists, Endurance

Heh. Yeah, just no. Technically legal in theory, but no GM in their right mind would allow the first summoned creature to be doing shit for any PC without payment (probably major and excessive payment), any more than they‘d let you have Thor as your personal bitch as an Emissary of Odin (which is also technically legal).

The second is a possibility, but it doesn’t help you much when they target you directly.

[Slife]

I'm sorry, I'm too busy destroying the planet with antimatter to bother with summoning anything else.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm sorry, I'm too busy destroying the planet with antimatter to bother with summoning anything else.

Actually, looking this over, reread Conjuration. All Conjured materials are inherently false, it's all actually Ectoplasm given form but not substance by magic. You can't conjure materials (like anti-matter), though you can conjure things that look like them. To take a more reasonable example, you also can't conjure an 'iron' sword that satisfies a Fairie's Catch.

EDIT: Wait, looking back, you're talking about Greater Glamour. Which I'd argue still operates by the above rules, but the distinction is academic. It doesn't matter, from a bizarre rules exploits point of view, because it's the one power explicitly limited to a specific group (pure Fae) and it's one of the only groups explicitly stated to never be allowed as PCs.

[Slife]

Yeah, but you just have to bind a pure fey once.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'd still argue it doesn't work like that.

[Korwin]

Antimatter is still an theory? Or did we get some antimatter made in RL and I missed it?

Heh. Yeah, just no. Technically legal in theory, but no GM in their right mind would allow the first summoned creature to be doing shit for any PC without payment (probably major and excessive payment), any more than they‘d let you have Thor as your personal bitch as an Emissary of Odin (which is also technically legal).

The second is a possibility, but it doesn’t help you much when they target you directly.

Fluffwise I see no reason why an Emisarry of Power couldnt command the underlings of his employer. You could even argue he doesnt need to bind them...
(This is the reason I have problems with Knight of the Fairy Courts too. I think I will lift the Emisary of Power to the same Power/refresh level as Denarians)

[crusher_bob]

Antimatter is still an theory? Or did we get some antimatter made in RL and I missed it?

It's make all the time in various large particle accelerators.  (CERN and Fermilab are examples)

[Slife]

We make antimatter all the time.  It's just ridiculously energy intensive, and can't be contained.

Even if it's ruled to "matter only", though, just create a boatload of polonium dust.   The LD-50 is about a microgram or so, so a kg or so could in theory decimate the world's population.


And these are things that are certainly less complicated to make than, say, a sword or an ice cream cone or a vine or something.  It's just pure substance.

[Deadmanwalking]

Fluffwise I see no reason why an Emisarry of Power couldnt command the underlings of his employer. You could even argue he doesnt need to bind them...
(This is the reason I have problems with Knight of the Fairy Courts too. I think I will lift the Emisary of Power to the same Power/refresh level as Denarians)

I think you're looking at Emissary of Power wrong. An Emissary can represent their liege and serve as a messenger for their commands, but unless doing so they don't necessarily have any authority over their other people (though they likely do over lesser servants).

In medieval times, think of it as a Knight sworn directly to a King. He need only obey the King himself directly, but he's still lower ranked than, say, a Duke, and can't just order a Duke to do things on his own authority, though he could bear commands from the king. Now, he could pretend to be representing the King when he isn't to get a Duke to do something, but when the King (or even the Duke) finds out they are not likely to be pleased, and have many ways to avenge the slight.

We make antimatter all the time.  It's just ridiculously energy intensive, and can't be contained.

Even if it's ruled to "matter only", though, just create a boatload of polonium dust.   The LD-50 is about a microgram or so, so a kg or so could in theory decimate the world's population.


And these are things that are certainly less complicated to make than, say, a sword or an ice cream cone or a vine or something.  It's just pure substance.

Uh. My point is that you can't make materials. You can make something that looks like gold, or even antimatter, but it's not really, it's ectoplasm, and it doesn't necessarily have any chemical, physical, or mystical properties of the material it's duplicating.

Now, I might allow a Faerie to make things that duplicate the effects of things they're familiar enough with, like alcohol, or arsenic, but certainly not radioactive compounds. And even that's something of a house rule, the intent is clearly that it flat-out can't duplicate material compositions at all.

[Korwin]

I think you're looking at Emissary of Power wrong. An Emissary can represent their liege and serve as a messenger for their commands, but unless doing so they don't necessarily have any authority over their other people (though they likely do over lesser servants).

Thats one interpretation. An limiting interpretation that is (IMHO) not supported by the books.

In the books, taking the Mantle of the Winter Knight gains equivalent power to taking up one of the Coins.
(

(click to show/hide)

At least Harry thinks so in Changes.

)

[Deadmanwalking]

Thats one interpretation. An limiting interpretation that is (IMHO) not supported by the books.

Depends on what you count as an Emissary. I'd say Gard absolutely counts and she's certainly in the category I've described.

In the books, taking the Mantle of the Winter Knight gains equivalent power to taking up one of the Coins.
(

(click to show/hide)

At least Harry thinks so in Changes.

)

I tend to agree that the Summer and Winter Knights specifically are more powerful than portrayed in their writeups and not good material for starting PCs, but that's a very specific example, and using it to say all Emissaries are inappropriate a bit like using Kincaid's write-up to suggest all Scions are inappropriate. They're exceptionally powerful examples of a template, but not all examples are so excessive.

[Korwin]

I tend to agree that the Summer and Winter Knights specifically are more powerful than portrayed in their writeups and not good material for starting PCs, but that's a very specific example, and using it to say all Emissaries are inappropriate a bit like using Kincaid's write-up to suggest all Scions are inappropriate. They're exceptionally powerful examples of a template, but not all examples are so excessive.

Emissary is the broader version of Summer and Winter Knight.
Scion is the broader version of Changeling.

The association lend itself for more powerful Emissaries.

But at this point we are nitpicking...

[KOFFEYKID]

I disagree, Deadmanwalking. I think the knights as portrayed in the RPG present a good baseline strength for a novice knight. On the other hand I think the stats listed for the Summer and Winter Knights in OW are probably a bit off.