What's the most munchkin character you can build?

[Falar]

I guess the crux of the matter is how Catch and Stacked Catch actually work together. I would think personally that Physical Immunity is only decreased by the Stacked Catch and all your other powers are affected by the regular Catch. That's how I personally think they should work ... even though that's not borne out by a strict reading of the rules.

If it was, then you could have Physical Immunity to something at a maximum of -3. And your normal Catch maxes out at one less than the sum of all your other Toughness powers. So you'd always pay at least -4 for Physical Immunity+.

[Moriden]

Okay that looks like in the ogres case
immunity to magic -8
+2 only protects again mortal magic
+2 mundane attacks are easy to come by
+1 can be researched.
for the plus 5.
and his normal catch which also affects his immunity is "cold iron and the like" for +3

for your example youd be doing something like
immunity to magic  -8
+2 only protects again mortal magic
+2 mundane attacks are easy to come by
+1 can be researched.
for the plus 5.

for your' example wed be doing the same?
+2 only protects again mortal magic
+2 mundane attacks are easy to come by
+1 can be researched.
for the plus 5.

and his normal catch which affects his immunity  Water Magic (+3)

making him immune to all mortal magic except water. Yeah that works. I'm not sure that's actually any cheesier then the ogres version where he has the full mortal magic immunity and its bypassed by cold iron. since the vast majority of the time magical attacks aren't cold iron

My original confusion and i assume Luminos's as well was we didn't catch that you wrote "to all non-Water based Magic" and thought you meant immunity to everything but but water magic,

[Deadmanwalking]

making him immune to all mortal magic except water. Yeah that works. I'm not sure that's actually any cheesier then the ogres version where he has the full mortal magic immunity and its bypassed by cold iron. since the vast majority of the time magical attacks aren't cold iron

Well, no, but his Cold Iron catch also applies to his other Toughness abilities, and in fact subtracts from them. So no imbalance worries there.

It just strikes me as imbalanced, that Immunity to Magic is a -3 power, and Immunity to 4/5ths of magic is a -1 power. I mean, at -1 Refresh, why hasn't every Wizard in the world just picked it up? It'd absolutely be worth it.

My original confusion and i assume Luminos's as well was we didn't catch that you wrote "to all non-Water based Magic" and thought you meant immunity to everything but but water magic,

Gotcha. Sorry for the confusion.

[arentol]

I guess the crux of the matter is how Catch and Stacked Catch actually work together. I would think personally that Physical Immunity is only decreased by the Stacked Catch and all your other powers are affected by the regular Catch. That's how I personally think they should work ... even though that's not borne out by a strict reading of the rules.

If it was, then you could have Physical Immunity to something at a maximum of -3. And your normal Catch maxes out at one less than the sum of all your other Toughness powers. So you'd always pay at least -4 for Physical Immunity+.

The maximum "catch" or "stacked catch" is +6, and your normal catch can be as high as you want it to be, but you still must pay 1 point for each power. So you could have PI -8, and inhuman recovery and toughness, then have +6 to both catches for a total of -12, but you still have a total cost for the three powers of -3, -1 each.

The rules as written are just horribly broken. It is easily resolved if all players and the GM agree not to be stupid about all this, but it is still broken.

[Deadmanwalking]

I guess the crux of the matter is how Catch and Stacked Catch actually work together. I would think personally that Physical Immunity is only decreased by the Stacked Catch and all your other powers are affected by the regular Catch. That's how I personally think they should work ... even though that's not borne out by a strict reading of the rules.

If it was, then you could have Physical Immunity to something at a maximum of -3. And your normal Catch maxes out at one less than the sum of all your other Toughness powers. So you'd always pay at least -4 for Physical Immunity+.

I agree with this completely, and doing it the other way is inordinately silly. I'm just talkng abou the way the rules technically work.

[Moriden]

All this is really the core problem that Moridens idea is exploiting, and I am dang glad he brought this up because it needs to be fixed in all these variations that people have posted here.

your welcome, i intentionally added as many borderline ruling's and horribly broken things as i could.

I guess the crux of the matter is how Catch and Stacked Catch actually work together. I would think personally that Physical Immunity is only  decreased by the Stacked Catch and all your other powers are affected by the regular Catch. That's how I personally think they should work ... even though that's not borne out by a strict reading of the rules.

The wording is pretty vague, but the example pretty clearly shows that "currently" the implementation is that the stacked catch and base catch apply as kinda a "pool" of points that you can use to defray all of your toughness powers.
Now weather that can lower any individual power to -1 or if the "toughness package" can be lowered to -1 is the question.

example one you have 8 "points" from your stacked catch, and you take human form +1
you get immunity -8 and inhuman toughness -2
immunity -8 +7 = -1   inhuman toughness -2 + 1= -1      total cost 2 and a wasted bonus point from human form total cost -2

Example two same situation.
Your "toughness powers which all only apply in human form are a combined "combat form" and thus are effectively one big power.
immunity               -8
Inhuman toughness -2
for a total of a        -10 "power"
you then add  your +9 from catch's and human form to bring it to a total of -1

[luminos]

I think there is plenty of ways to make the catch abusable.  To me, the best solution is to try to calculate the rebate to reflect how hard it is to use someones catch.  Use the guidelines when possible, but use commonsense otherwise. 

Think about this:  The catch is balloons.  +2 for being something that anyone can get, maybe +1 if you can justify how it is researchable.  And yet, finding ways to hurt someone with balloons is so stupidly hard to do that using them to satisfy the catch is almost worthless.  So it would end up being a +0 catch

[Moriden]

This thread moves to fast when I'm trying to post 

Personally i think the immunity power is half the problem, the fact that you can have

Immunity -8
Cacth: Hasent been discoverd +0

and be immune to everything until your st arbitrarily decides what your catch is. is rather horrid. 
I cant really think of any combination that includes immunity that isn't broken.

It just strikes me as imbalanced, that Immunity to Magic is a -3 power, and Immunity to 4/5ths of magic is a -1 power. I mean, at -1 Refresh, why hasn't every Wizard in the world just picked it up? It'd absolutely be worth it.

Well there is the slight limitation's of needing your high concept to justify the powers that you buy, and short of putting it in an item of power

(click to show/hide)

like madrigal raith did

you'd have to Transform yourself to get something like this regardless of if it was +0 or -8, and theirs all kinds of other problems when you try to do that.

[Moriden]

Think about this:  The catch is balloons.  +2 for being something that anyone can get, maybe +1 if you can justify how it is researchable.  And yet, finding ways to hurt someone with balloons is so stupidly hard to do that using them to satisfy the catch is almost worthless.  So it would end up being a +0 catch

While i would never allow balloons to be someones catch there is the argument that it would work in a similar way to inherited silver verse loup-garoux. so if you used a magical attack to deliver the balloon, that would qualify and use the magical attacks strength, same if you wrapped a balloon around a club and beet the poor sap with it.

[arentol]

...same if you wrapped a balloon around a club and beet the poor sap with it.

Or put sand in it and sapped the sap with it.

[Deadmanwalking]

Well there is the slight limitation's of needing your high concept to justify the powers that you buy, and short of putting it in an item of power

(click to show/hide)

like madrigal raith did

you'd have to Transform yourself to get something like this regardless of if it was +0 or -8, and theirs all kinds of other problems when you try to do that.

Not really. A permanent Ward against most magic is absolutely in-theme for a Wizard. It's even a reasonable option for them...I just really don't think it's value is on par with a level of Refinement.

[Moriden]

Not really. A permanent Ward against most magic is absolutely in-theme for a Wizard. It's even a reasonable option for them...I just really don't think it's value is on par with a level of Refinement.

Wards, in this setting, are stationary. you'd have to attach it to yourself or an object you can carry somehow.

[Deadmanwalking]

Wards, in this setting, are stationary. you'd have to attach it to yourself or an object you can carry somehow.

Depends on what you mean by a ward. In a system sense, yeah. But I was more referring to any long-term magical protection (aka Harry's coat), when I said Ward.

Also, even going by needing an 'item', you could get some tattoos.

[drnuncheon]

Personally i think the immunity power is half the problem, the fact that you can have

Immunity -8
Cacth: Hasent been discoverd +0

and be immune to everything until your st arbitrarily decides what your catch is. is rather horrid.

If that was the only supernatural power an enemy in a Dresden book had, I would be laughing as Murph put him in an armbar, slapped cuffs on him, and marched him away.  Physical immunity by itself is not all that powerful - it has to be stacked with something else to make it worthwhile.

Look at the creatures in the book and note that every single one of them has a good reason for their Physical Immunity (and a logical catch as well).  Complete physical immunity is extremely rare, immunity to mortal magic is linked to Faerie, etc.  I would never allow a generic PI with an unknown catch in my game - I'd be saying "Tell me how you got this way, then we decide the catch based on that."

The rules are no substitute for a GM who knows when to say "no".  Any rules can be abused in the absence of sense.

[Deadmanwalking]

From the typo thread:

Non-Typo potentially major issues that have come up in various threads:

1. Can you apply the original Catch as well as the Stacked Catch to Physical Immunity? It would seem by the rules that you can, but that results in this:

Physical Immunity (-8)
The Catch: Water Magic (+3)
The Catch (Stacked): Non-magical attacks (+5)

And a character immune to all non-Water Magic for a single point of Refresh. Which seems a bit cheap for the effect.

#1 - The Stacked Catch only applies if you already have another catch applying to your other Toughness powers. There are no other Toughness powers in #1, so the principle of biggest value catch applies, netting only a +5 value.