What's the most munchkin character you can build?

[Deadmanwalking]

Recent evidence seems to suggest that Inhuman Strength, Speed, and Toughness, with no Item of Power to offset them, are part of the default power set for the Summer or Winter Knight (along with Sponsored Magic and Marked By Power), that's what I, personally, would give a novice Knight. That's also -10 Refresh...and thus just slightly out of PC reach.


And to Korwin: Huh? I'm not sure what you're getting at. True Believer or Champion of God are debatably broader versions of Knight of the Cross, and yet less powerful for the most part. A broader variation means more variation, not necessarily higher power level.

[KOFFEYKID]

Id rather think that recent evidence suggests that you don't need an item of power to gain those abilities, you can do so without relying on the sword of summer flame, for example, it just costs more refresh. In RPG terms, during Changes Harry basically goes Off the Deep End, as seen on Page 92. He's pulling refresh way below 0. I like to think of it as how much of the mantle are you going to let get its hooks into you? Sort of like a changeling going more and more fey.

[Korwin]

Emissary of Power
...
Knights of the Faerie Courts are an example of this, as are—by certain lights—Champions of God such as the Knights of the Cross. (Both have their own templates found elsewhere in this chapter.)

Looks like the same power Level to me. But lets drop this point.
Even if we (I) scratch this Template and the Knights of the Faerie Court...
Actually I dont scratch the Template. I scratch the fluff of this Templates for starting Characters...


But another question to an earlier post from you:

Heh. Yeah, just no. Technically legal in theory, but no GM in their right mind would allow the first summoned creature to be doing shit for any PC without payment (probably major and excessive payment), any more than they‘d let you have Thor as your personal bitch as an Emissary of Odin (which is also technically legal).

Are we back on-topic? Do we have an overpowered Char?


How could the Demon even try to not do as commanded?

1. He is bound and is under the control of the binder.
2. Afterwards he cant get revenge, because he would get a problem with his own boss? And its not as if it doesnt get screwed by his superiours anyway. So its not even something that stands out in his memory.
Hell (no pun intended) the time out of Hell (or is it intended?) is basically an Holliday for him...
"Hey boss, I'm finished with your Armor. But I think I could upgrade the Ward with a little more time..."

Well, who's army was it to start with? How are you going to get that many names?

Thats the reason I wrote "Magical Construct" and even if you ban AI Constructs or copies of your on Mind (see Stone Warden Dogs) look at the General build.
He gets the names from his employer...

I'd also like to throw out the idea that any character who routinely spends 8 hours summoning and binding an army is A) not being played realistically, B) being given problems that are too simplistic (and thus CAN be solved just by summoning a giant army), and C) is being given far too much time to deal with their problems.

Are you serious?
A) Is an Char unrealistic who only works 8 hours per month? Because of too much work? Then any normal mortal who didnt won in the lottery is unrealistic?
B) Do you think he can use the "Army" only for fighting, because I wrote Army there? He can have the right tool for the right job every time he wants it. Scouting, no Problem. Fighting, no Problem. Information gathering, no Problem. Fast talkin, no Problem. Going to jail for you (Go to the Police and make an "I did it" statement), no Problem. And so on...
C) The Chars in you game dont have 8 uninterupted hours in an month?
And even then, he coud divide those 8 hours in sixteen half hours and summon and bind creatures before he goes to bed.

[Deadmanwalking]

Looks like the same power Level to me. But lets drop this point.
Even if we (I) scratch this Template and the Knights of the Faerie Court...
Actually I dont scratch the Template. I scratch the fluff of this Templates for starting Characters...

Okay…I think? I’m really not sure what you’re saying here.

Though thinking about it, Knights of the Cross are a great example of what I mean when talking about Emissaries of Power: They’re emissaries of God, but despite working for the same boss Michael and Uriel tell them what to do, not vice versa. Being an Emissary hardly makes you the top of your boss’s hierarchy.

But another question to an earlier post from you:Are we back on-topic? Do we have an overpowered Char?

Not in any mechanical sense. He’s overpowered in the same sense as a PC President of the United States, because he has access to things no sane GM gives a player access to, but he’s not mechanically overpowered. Summoning isn’t the problem, it’s allowing concepts that intrinsically grant such implicit and non-mechanical benefits.

How could the Demon even try to not do as commanded?

1. He is bound and is under the control of the binder.
2. Afterwards he cant get revenge, because he would get a problem with his own boss? And its not as if it doesnt get screwed by his superiours anyway. So its not even something that stands out in his memory.
Hell (no pun intended) the time out of Hell (or is it intended?) is basically an Holliday for him...
"Hey boss, I'm finished with your Armor. But I think I could upgrade the Ward with a little more time..."

Sure, and the President can nuke you, or the CIA director have you assassinated. So? They’re not appropriate PC concepts and thus disallowed in all sane games. No game can actually prevent this kind of thing, because it’s an issue with the non-mechanical aspects of the game.

Thats the reason I wrote "Magical Construct" and even if you ban AI Constructs or copies of your on Mind (see Stone Warden Dogs) look at the General build.

I believe I’ve addressed these possibilities, repeating myself seems unnecessary.

He gets the names from his employer...
Are you serious?
A) Is an Char unrealistic who only works 8 hours per month? Because of too much work? Then any normal mortal who didnt won in the lottery is unrealistic?
B) Do you think he can use the "Army" only for fighting, because I wrote Army there? He can have the right tool for the right job every time he wants it. Scouting, no Problem. Fighting, no Problem. Information gathering, no Problem. Fast talkin, no Problem. Going to jail for you (Go to the Police and make an "I did it" statement), no Problem. And so on...
C) The Chars in you game dont have 8 uninterupted hours in an month?
And even then, he coud divide those 8 hours in sixteen half hours and summon and bind creatures before he goes to bed.

I think his point is that they won’t have time to do it in an adventure. And personally, I’d say this kind of constant mass binding is probably about as likely to get you dead as a single big-thing binding. Every non-bound critter in the city will constantly be trying to kill you, just so you don’t enslave them someday.

[pogoman]

Are you serious?
A) Is an Char unrealistic who only works 8 hours per month? Because of too much work? Then any normal mortal who didnt won in the lottery is unrealistic?
B) Do you think he can use the "Army" only for fighting, because I wrote Army there? He can have the right tool for the right job every time he wants it. Scouting, no Problem. Fighting, no Problem. Information gathering, no Problem. Fast talkin, no Problem. Going to jail for you (Go to the Police and make an "I did it" statement), no Problem. And so on...
C) The Chars in you game dont have 8 uninterupted hours in an month?
And even then, he coud divide those 8 hours in sixteen half hours and summon and bind creatures before he goes to bed.

"A" and "C" have nothing to do with the time investment being too much, and everything to do with a character whose response to a threat is to summon an army.  As has been pointed out other places, there are game (not necessarily system, mind you, although their could be) ramifications to summoning and binding large numbers of creatures routinely.  And you missed my point on the time investment, because what I was saying was that I don't routinely give my players 8 uninterrupted hours during an adventure with which to do whatever they want.  Time constraints are king.  If there's an evil warlock trying to complete a magic ritual, he's likely got a time-frame.  And the player may not HAVE 8 hours to spend before they need to stop him.

In your other example, if he's summoning creatures before bed what is he doing with them in the meantime?  Do they just sit around his apartment?  Watch some TV?  Do the neighbors notice something weird?  Landlady? What if aforementioned Warlock can tell something weird is going on, and calls in a tip to the police who show up with a warrant?  Do his summoned beasts need to eat?  Honestly, the comic potential for having a dozen unruly summoned creatures in your apartment... well, it boggles the mind.  As a GM I'd salivate over the chance to mess with a character that way.  It would just be too funny.

I think his point is that they won’t have time to do it in an adventure. And personally, I’d say this kind of constant mass binding is probably about as likely to get you dead as a single big-thing binding. Every non-bound critter in the city will constantly be trying to kill you, just so you don’t enslave them someday.

^-This.  I actually think exploring the story ramifications could be cool, though, so I have no problem with a character summoning a ton of creatures.  I'm just pointing out that it could cause massive problems for the character.

As for being able to tailor the army to whatever you want, that's true to a point.  But I hold that it makes things too simplistic.  Again, if you're not putting a character under any sort of time constraint, the problem is simpler than it would be.  Or if you put them in situations where there is a clear foe to defeat.  Even scouting won't help if you don't know what you're actually looking for and have to deal with surly bound creatures who aren't inclined to exercise initiative on your behalf.  Remember how Grimalkin hates being bound by Harry in SK?  Think about that times 100.  And god help you if you summon a creature and force it to divulge information without payment.  It may then decide to come back later to collect, or sell your "debt" to something a lot stronger.

I mean, c'mon, does anything LIKE being called out of wherever they were and told to do stuff?  Without payment?  Or, if it DID want to be summoned, would it go back nicely afterwards?  And if you're playing them, then the GM has an in to limit your summoning to something... manageable.  If not, you may have just summoned a new villain for your character.  Or army of villains.

But this is all really about GMing style.  My bottom line is I think summoning an army is totally awesome, and I'm glad you can do it within the rules.  I just think that it provides so many story-based hooks and downsides that it's impractical to use regularly.

[toturi]

Not in any mechanical sense. He’s overpowered in the same sense as a PC President of the United States, because he has access to things no sane GM gives a player access to, but he’s not mechanically overpowered. Summoning isn’t the problem, it’s allowing concepts that intrinsically grant such implicit and non-mechanical benefits.

Sure, and the President can nuke you, or the CIA director have you assassinated. So? They’re not appropriate PC concepts and thus disallowed in all sane games. No game can actually prevent this kind of thing, because it’s an issue with the non-mechanical aspects of the game.

Sanity is relative. There are character concepts that one GM may reject that another may accept. It does not make the other GM insane. Similarly just because you see such a thing as one that no sane GM will give a player access to does not necessarily mean that it actually is insane.

Furthermore, I find that this line of reasoning is quite irrational given the premise of this thread. The President and the CIA director could well be appropriate PC concepts, you simply do not see it as such. The mechanical aspects of the game can well prevent this sort of thing if the game mechanics touch upon the socio-economics/non-combat aspects of the characters.

[Deadmanwalking]

Perhaps I should rephrase: No sane GM would allow such a character in the kind of game the DFRPG is intended to be.

Now, other game styles are a different matter (I played the Secretary of State in a Call of Cthulhu game once), but they also aren't the kind of game the DFRPG is intended to facilitate.

And I actually can't think of any games that regulate socio-economic status to the extent that you couldn't be the President. D&D sure doesn't, nor Call of Cthulhu, nor the Unisystem from Eden Studios, nor any other game I can think of. In some, including the DFRPG actually, you'd need to invest a fair amount into it (Superb Resources and either Presence or Contacting, with several Stunts in DFRPG), but it's doable.

[toturi]

Again you presume the sanity of a GM who would allow such a character in the kind of game the DFRPG is intended to be.

Further, is it not the writers' intent that once the book reaches the GM's hands, it is up to him to decide what kind of game he intends to run?

[Deadmanwalking]

Again you presume the sanity of a GM who would allow such a character in the kind of game the DFRPG is intended to be.

Yep! 

Allowing such a character in a group of more typical PCs will inevitably lead to power imbalances, which are no fun for anybody, and generally a bad idea.

Further, is it not the writers' intent that once the book reaches the GM's hands, it is up to him to decide what kind of game he intends to run?

Oh, absolutely. I'm a big advocate of doing anything you like with a game. Call of Cthulhu isn't reall intended for that sort of thing either and that game was still fun.

But you can't really expect a Noir style urban fantasy game to have rules for dealing with, say, starship combat. Or, for that matter, rules against playing someone with his own starship capable of planetary destruction (there are no such rules as it's a vehicle, not a personal capability, after all). You can add such rules, but they can't be expected to be there.

The same with allowing characters to be the President (or someone with dieties on call). It's something the game was never intended for and can't really be expected to have rules to accomodate. It's certainly overpowered but not mechanically overpowered in the way, say, Moriden's first listed character was, because it's power is pretty much entirely based on having a GM who will allow you to play such a thing. The stats are immaterial, you could have absolutely no powers aside from Marked By Power (clearly a reasonable ability on it's own), and a ridiculously bad skill array, and you could still be General of the Demon Army and have god-level beings on call who must do exactly as you say if the GM let you. It's not an overpowered character mechanically, just conceptually.

[toturi]

Yep! 

Allowing such a character in a group of more typical PCs will inevitably lead to power imbalances, which are no fun for anybody, and generally a bad idea.

The same with allowing characters to be the President (or someone with dieties on call). It's something the game was never intended for and can't really be expected to have rules to accomodate. It's certainly overpowered but not mechanically overpowered in the way, say, Moriden's first listed character was, because it's power is pretty much entirely based on having a GM who will allow you to play such a thing. The stats are immaterial, you could have absolutely no powers aside from Marked By Power (clearly a reasonable ability on it's own), and a ridiculously bad skill array, and you could still be General of the Demon Army and have god-level beings on call who must do exactly as you say if the GM let you. It's not an overpowered character mechanically, just conceptually.

It would just as likely that a GM that doesn't allow such characters that is insane. I am a firm believer that there is no such thing as a "typical" PC, just a PC that is well built or not. Allowing a well built character in a group of well built PCs will not lead to power imbalances. If the GM has in his mind what a typical PC should look like will inevitably lead to similar-looking PCs and boring game, which are no fun for anybody and is generally an even worse idea.

A General of the Demon Army that doesn't have the skills nor the ability to back it up should shortly lose his army. Usually in a messy way.

[Deadmanwalking]

But that's rather the point, isn't it? As stated above, the General can be vastly below his own subordinates in power...because his power is entirely vested in his Master's authority. They can't overthrow him, as their own Master (presumably the Lord of Hell) wouldn't allow it. Which all makes perfect logical sense, and (like the Emissary of Odin who can casually order Thor to smite his enemies) is completely inappropriate for anything resembling a normal Dresden Files game.

Being flexible in the characters allowed is absolutely a GM must...but there are limits. In this game (and most, but not all, others), those include no characters with giant demon armies on call, nobody with access Nuclear Weapons, and no one with the ability to blow up the planet.

Sometimes, not often, but sometimes being a GM means being able to hear a player's concept and say 'No", because it would inherently unbalance the game to such an extent the other players won't have fun.

But really, you know that already. You wouldn't actually allow a character with a Death Star and Star-Trek style transporter in a Dresden Files game where the other PCs are an ordinary Cop with some good gun skills and a novice wizard. Nor even the mystical equivalent. Nor an army of 10,000 screaming demons all capable of slaying gods. Those are what I mean by inappropriate concepts. And yes, the Demon General and the President of the United States are absolutely in that category (if somewhat less obvious as examples).

[Moriden]

But really, you know that already. You wouldn't actually allow a character with a Death Star and Star-Trek style transporter in a Dresden Files game where the other PCs are an ordinary Cop with some good gun skills and a novice wizard. Nor even the mystical equivalent. Nor an army of 10,000 screaming demons all capable of slaying gods. Those are what I mean by inappropriate concepts. And yes, the Demon General and the President of the United States are absolutely in that category (if somewhat less obvious as examples).

Ether way the character fulfills what the OP asked for, examples of character that from a mechanical or other standpoint he should be looking out for.

[Deadmanwalking]

Ether way the character fulfills what the OP asked for, examples of character that from a mechanical or other standpoint he should be looking out for.

True enough. 

But threads evolve over time, and this particular topic grew out of a discussion of whether the summoning rules are broken...and I was explaining why that wasn't the problem with the character in question.

Also, I'm defending my position that the only real thing that can be done to limit characters of the problematic type mentioned is for the GM to not allow them, which seems more or less true to me.

[Slife]

Uh. My point is that you can't make materials. You can make something that looks like gold, or even antimatter, but it's not really, it's ectoplasm, and it doesn't necessarily have any chemical, physical, or mystical properties of the material it's duplicating.

Now, I might allow a Faerie to make things that duplicate the effects of things they're familiar enough with, like alcohol, or arsenic, but certainly not radioactive compounds. And even that's something of a house rule, the intent is clearly that it flat-out can't duplicate material compositions at all.

Oh, good.  Next time a demon tries to hit my character with poisonous fangs, I have a great counterargument.

[Deadmanwalking]

Not all demons/creatures from the Nevernever are pure ectoplasm. Faeries aren't.