Author Topic: Is your character a Mary Sue?  (Read 22595 times)

Offline Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2007, 07:53:32 PM »
To paraphrase Pirates of the Caribbean, the "shopping list" is more guidelines than actual rules.  Plenty of really good, fleshed-out characters have characteristics of Mary-Sues, but they have things that balance them out.  What makes the sort of Mary-Sue that people spork is when the character has nothing but Sue-ish characteristics. 

I have no problem with moderate Sues in original fiction, as long as they're coupled with decent writing and an interesting story.  However, it is good to know the rules before you go breaking them, so that you know your character's Sue-ish characteristics and can balance them out.

There are always stupid people who flame (give overly harsh reviews to) stories because they have nothing better to do.  Usually, they have nothing worthwhile to say.  Someone who is honestly concerned with the quality of your writing, and not just making you feel bad, will give you a well-rounded critique that points out flaws and strengths and doesn't just say, "OMG, thats a MarySue!"

In fanfic, the big concern about Sues is that they are often coupled with bad writing and/or mangling of canon.  The stereotype of a Suethor in Lord of the Rings, for example, is a Legolas/Aragorn fangirl whose character exists only for living out her creator's romantic fantasies, and has bad grammar to boot.  Because of this stereotype (which is not unfounded--many Suethors are like that), many readers start flaming the minute they see something that might be Sue-ish.  It's unfair, to both authors and readers, but it seems to be an unavoidable part of the fanfic community.

Yeah, I've figured out the cliche Mary Sues in several fandoms: in the "Matrix" series, most Mary Sues are "OMG TEH REEL WUN!!1111", or "Neo's-twin-just-not-mentioned-in-the-movies-who-goes-out-and-kills-the-Merovingian-and-the-Machines", or some random girl who gets kidnapped by the Merovingian and becomes the Mercury Twins's girlfriend. In "Hellsing", she seems to be some random girl who gets rescued/turned into a vampire by Alucard and/or becomes his girlfriend, whereupon Integra and/or Seras get "SEW JELLUS!11111" over the new girl.

Canon Sues of either gender (males are usually called Gary Stu or Harry Stu) are just as possible. I've mentioned Laurell K. Hamillton's Merry Gentry, but Dan Brown's Robert Langdon is another candidate: he's so special, he even has a job teaching a course that doesn't exist in any known university, much less at Harvard University. As is Sophie Neveu in "The DaVinci Code"; she's such a Sue that I tend to refer to her as Marie-Suzette since she's French.

Mind you, I can take a well-written Sue, but if -- as in the case of fanfiction -- the story is fraught with bad spelling, bad grammar, blatantly obvious lack of research, horrible logic violations (as in the case of the Mary Sue that told her friend she was seven months pregnant with the baby of the Sue-thor's obvious favorite male character, and said friend asked Mary Sue why she didn't look pregnant; replies Mary Sue, "Oh, I had surgery so I wouldn't look fat."), and canon character bashing (case in point, all those "Matrix" Sues who kill the Merovingian just because the Sue-thor hates him), I feel obliged to get out the scythe and do a little reaping.

Offline Cyclone Jack

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2007, 09:50:51 PM »
150 Years Of Mary Sue, by Pat Pfliegar. Fascinating and insightful essay on the phenomenon.
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Offline Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2007, 10:59:33 PM »
150 Years Of Mary Sue, by Pat Pfliegar. Fascinating and insightful essay on the phenomenon.

Love that article! The late, great "Kielle" has this linked to her wonderful website, subreality.com, which features tons of articles, both pro-, anti-, and contra-Sue.

Offline Spectacular Sameth

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2007, 11:03:59 PM »
Based only on what I've seen in all six season, Jack Bauer came out with a 46 on the Mary Sue test, meaning he is somewhat of a Gary Stu. I would've though the score would be higher, but since it's not my character, I couldn't answer everything.

By the way, Samurphy, I KNEW Dresden was a GS. Thanks for doing the test for him.

Offline Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2007, 04:42:00 PM »
By the way, Samurphy, I KNEW Dresden was a GS. Thanks for doing the test for him.

Naw, Harry's no GS: He *would* be if he'd gotten more AWSUM POWAHS!11111 after having that horizontal tango with Susan in Death Masks. Getting the gift (or curse) of Hellfire doesn't count since there's so many strings attached to his connection with Lash.

Offline Spectacular Sameth

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2007, 07:51:01 PM »
You should do the test for him if you don't believe us. There's a lot more that is considered GS-ism that just that. ;)

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2007, 08:51:54 PM »
You should do the test for him if you don't believe us. There's a lot more that is considered GS-ism that just that. ;)

I think this just goes to provide more evidence that the test is a load of dingo's kidneys, myself.
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Offline Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2007, 09:08:44 PM »
I think this just goes to provide more evidence that the test is a load of dingo's kidneys, myself.

As was said above, the test is more like a set of guidelines than a set of rules. Mary Sues/Gary Stus/Arry Oos (yes, Arry Oo is sometimes used as a non-gender-specific version of the term) tend to have a lot of the qualities listed, as well as flawed writing and a strong whiff of wish-fulfillment.

Offline Sky Verati

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2007, 10:38:00 PM »
It's so nice to see people talk common sense for a change.

Quote
I think this just goes to provide more evidence that the test is a load of dingo's kidneys, myself.

I love that, by the way.

Offline ex-P.F.C Crunch

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2007, 03:03:08 AM »
49-Mary Sue for black mailing victim Jeromy Mitchell

 This test is stupid. No major developed character from my stories( I wrote mystery for fun in college) got a decent score. The questions were unclear at times resulting in me saying yes to only part of a question. I didn't like it.
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Offline LizW65

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2007, 05:22:12 PM »

By the way, Samurphy, I KNEW Dresden was a GS. Thanks for doing the test for him.

I did the test on him before and after White Night came out.  He was borderline Sue at first, then crossed over into full-blown - I think it was Lash's parting "gift" that pushed him over the edge.  God forbid that any fictional character should be proficient in
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, eh?
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Offline Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2007, 08:59:28 PM »
I did the test on him before and after White Night came out.  He was borderline Sue at first, then crossed over into full-blown - I think it was Lash's parting "gift" that pushed him over the edge.  God forbid that any fictional character should be proficient in
(click to show/hide)
, eh?

Well, it's not like the typical Mary Sue who can out-sing Sarah Brightman, or the late, great Beverly Sills, and usually does so on the first page (I have seen so many singer Sues, it isn't funny). The key to Arry Oo-ness is not so much *WHAT* is written, but *HOW*. Sure, a character might come out with a huge score on that test, but they might not actually *be* one, if the writer knows how to bring the character across in a believeable manner.

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2007, 01:44:27 AM »
Well, it's not like the typical Mary Sue who can out-sing Sarah Brightman, or the late, great Beverly Sills, and usually does so on the first page (I have seen so many singer Sues, it isn't funny).

But what if you really do sing IRL? ;) (I might not be better then Sarah Brightman, but I think emotional depth speaking I'm better then Charlotte Church cause I have more life experience to draw from.)

Most of my characters are Mary Sues, I admit, again. I have a boring life. So I make up exciting and romantic ones for myself that I'll never have.

Offline Erlkoeneg

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Re: Is your character a Mary Sue?
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2007, 06:46:40 AM »
One typicaly solid way I've found to avoid mary-sue/gary-stue ness is to always remember this rule
Everything has a Price.
case in point, a kind of magic I came up with for some short stories, queromancy. Queromancy is the magic of asking a question, and getting reality to give you an answer. There are, however, many prices that come with this. for example, you wll never hear a queromancer speak a question in casual conversation. They have to be very good at this, becasue of the possible consequences. Said consequences being two things; 1) going crazy. These guys go crazy at the drop of a hat. for one to be sane past the age of twenty is almost unheard of.
2) Falling. As with any kind of magic, it is possible to screw up, and Fallen queromancers are some of the scariest s**t around.