Is your character a Mary Sue?

[Qualapec]

I've seen Star Buck in action, and HELL no, she isn't Mary Sue...

This is a topic that really gets under my skin because frankly, I had posted one of my OC's on a live journal analysis group, and gave samples of the fanfic in question. They tore him apart not based on prose, or my skill level, but on the fact I made him related to one of the "canon" characters and reasonably attractive. It escalated to a flame war when I didn't go with what they "suggested" and I pulled the post. It did not matter how well I wrote him, as far as they were concerned, related to canon character=Sue. Which is bullshit. Same as those tests. And it pisses me off that people on these groups will make it a point to be as rude and demeaning to the author as they possibly can. Hello, all because you can't see the person, doesn't give you the right to behave like an ass. Some of these authors that they pounce on (or 'spork' as they call it in the fanfic world), are like 14, 13 years old. WTF?  It's picking on a kid. There's no reason for it....

Anyway, I stay with those groups so I can smack them every once in a while when "critics" go off on a character for having purple hair, or having a "cool" name. And god forbid anyone is 'related' to anyone else...

Apparently, you have to heap dust on original characters and give them ridiculous flaws just to make them REAL.

*massive eye roll*

That's exactly how I feel. When I write fanfiction with original female characters, lately I've just given up and taken to making them villains because I don't feel like dealing with the "KILL THE SUE!!!" reviews.

In my experience you can't even have a female character that's a skilled warrior without someone screaming Sue. And a female character in a relationship with the main character is a big no-no. That drives me crazy. Now, by themselves someone may not complain, but heaven forbid you have a female warrior that happens to be in a relationship with a cannon character.

I know what you mean about how they are mean to authors that are probably quite young. You know those sites that go through and tear a fanfiction story apart? Whilst claiming the author mentally handicapped? Well, when I wrote and posted my first fanfics when I was 10. Not knowing any better, my character was a bit of a Mary Sue. My story was put on this livejournal account and flamed, terribly. I was just a kid for crying out loud, of course the story was crap! That's part of the reason I'm so scared of making a character that's a Mary Sue.

However, your story is unique from the standpoint that I find reviewers tend to be more lienient toward male OCs.

I'm just curious, what's your definition of Mary Sue?

~She-Wolf

[Maiafay]

That's exactly how I feel. When I write fanfiction with original female characters, lately I've just given up and taken to making them villains because I don't feel like dealing with the "KILL THE SUE!!!" reviews.

In my experience you can't even have a female character that's a skilled warrior without someone screaming Sue. And a female character in a relationship with the main character is a big no-no. That drives me crazy. Now, by themselves someone may not complain, but heaven forbid you have a female warrior that happens to be in a relationship with a cannon character.

I know what you mean about how they are mean to authors that are probably quite young. You know those sites that go through and tear a fanfiction story apart? Whilst claiming the author mentally handicapped? Well, when I wrote and posted my first fanfics when I was 10. Not knowing any better, my character was a bit of a Mary Sue. My story was put on this livejournal account and flamed, terribly. I was just a kid for crying out loud, of course the story was crap! That's part of the reason I'm so scared of making a character that's a Mary Sue.

However, your story is unique from the standpoint that I find reviewers tend to be more lienient toward male OCs.

I'm just curious, what's your definition of Mary Sue?

~She-Wolf

Okay, this will be long. In my defense, I only did this to prove a point.

Here are some links first off: Great if you want to see mob behavior in action and see how nasty people can be when it doesn't concern them. Yes, my deleted posts are there as well, someone took screen caps (who I found out later was one of my friends on my friends list on LJ. Ain't that nifty?)

My stupid mistake
my stupid mistake continues

Now, you are probably wondering what on earth possessed me to make a sock puppet and then post my OC on both Marysues and oc_analysis when I should have been confident in my reviews and feedback to know “Daniel” WAS NOT a Gary Stu.

A troll did it. Yep, one lousy troll--who I think was a friend of one author I flamed for having a Sue. I used to do that--flame sues, post them on groups, have a good laugh. I never realized how mean and cruel these things are to people until I was on the other side of that line.

Anyway this troll posted on Blood Ties (silent Hill fandom) on Fanfiction.net and I did the wrong thing and responded to them...as did my reviewers. Then I got worried that maybe Daniel WAS a stu--and with a huge brain fart--posted him on analysis under my real account, and then at marysues under a hastily made sock puppet. I just wanted to prove that people would take what my sock puppet said at face value and they wouldn't read the story for themselves (even when I posted Mary Sues, I always read the story. The author's skill level plays a huge part in characterization).

So, I received unfavorable feedback, particularly from two teenage girls, farla and redcoast over on lj. (They stay out of my way now...since I tore them to pieces when they approached me on my own lj during the fallout--my Lj is my turf, no one insults me there! So let’s just say again…they stay away from me now. ) Who decided it would be neat to not only insult me, but to correct my grammar on my PROFILE. Yeah...

I  realized after posting on oc_anaylsis, that “my” version of Mary sue: Someone who is perfect, beautiful, powerful, makes canon characters OOC, and has the personality of a muddle puddle on flat concrete, was not the same as everyone’s. Elitists, those who DO make the laundry lists and label and basically want your OC’s as boring as possible (and to NOT be the main character as I have Daniel from Blood Ties) This is unrealistic, and frankly a waste of time. If you don’t like the OC, them click the back button. But no, they must belittle and be rude… and act superior to anyone who is insecure enough to post on those groups.

I also realized, that no, people DON’T read the story in question. They want to giggle and point, and if they actually read the story--they might not be able to do that. I purposely, under my sock puppet, only put half the details about Daniel--so that people would HAVE to read to get the full scoop on him. They did not, so I lost my temper and revealed who I was (bangs head on desk) thus igniting the entire flame war.  I may have proved my point, but they were all pissed off that I HAD proved my point.

I deleted all posts to remove the source of the flames--since everyone was beyond critiquing and more interested in calling me names and insulting me. I did not run away like my so-called friend said a month later when she “confessed” she was the one who posted me on fandomwank.  I did the exact opposite.

I made a public apology (yes even to farla and redcoast when they didn’t deserve it) to everyone who I got nasty with; apologized to all authors that I had sporked and flamed. Went back and deleted those posts--and went back and re-reviewed with better crits. I also stayed on Marysues and oc_analysis and stayed very VISIBLE--offering advice to people they jumped on from a more neutral and well-meaning standpoint. I also made a guide on helping authors on how to round out their Original Characters. My former friend claimed I ran away--I think not. 

I had made my bed and lied in it. I learned my lesson, and am wiser now to how people are, and more confident in my opinion of a Mary Sue. Now I go, and when applicable, review “Sues” that are sporked everyday, and give them a better critique rather than the flames and rudeness they receive automatically. I also get in people’s faces when they spork a Sue whose author is 14 or younger. There is no need for that. It’s common sense that you don’t pick on a child. It pisses me off every time I see it, and I actively pursue those little bastards that enjoy hounding them.  I’ve also noticed since I spoke up in the analysis group, more people who are like me are voicing their opinions to counteract the few who are asses.  Like me, they don’t see a reason you must make your OC as plain and uninteresting as can be. There’s no need for it. Balance your writing and keep it real. All characters, even canon have strengths, weaknesses, quirks, families, memories, motivations, goals, fears, etc., etc. In fanfic and in original stories: make them beautiful, give them cool names, let them have relations with canon characters--but keep them real. That’s all that should be addressed.

I’m sorry they flamed you…but you shouldn’t let that stop you from doing what you want, or writing what you like. Screw whoever flames you or can’t talk with respect. They obviously have nothing better to do with their time than bitch--and they aren’t worth a second glance. If you want, give me links by PM and I'll take a look at your stories...seriously, stop making OC villians (unless you want to) and make what you want!

Funny thing though, during all that crap--my story received plenty of hits…but no flames. If it were so awful, why not flame me?

Oh yeah, took that test at the beginning of this thread…and Daniel scored a 20. 

[King of De Nile]

Please, tell us how you really feel. 

Actually, I agree with you here. The idea that a character has to conform to a certain set of rules to be considered a viable character is bogus. For me, there are two ways I approach characters. For the "main, main" characters (yes, this is how I classify my characters, hence failing almost every writing class I took), you build a character that you know you can keep interesting for however long the story is. That means no characters that are boring, whether they be a Sleepy Boo (great name ) or a Mary Sue. But it's not the rules that make these characters, it's the authors. Any character can be dull in the wrong hands, just as any character can be brilliant in the right hands. For my "kinda main" characters, they're built more to fit the story than in and of themselves. Again, the only rule should be that they fit the story and are interesting. No place-holders, and no blatant deus ex machina characters popping up. Things like talking heads are fine, if you can make them more interesting than a straight data drop. Bob's a perfect example of this; he reveals key information, but has a wonderfully twisted way about him that makes him great. So for the character you wrote, for example, the only things that should have mattered was did he fit the story, and was he interesting? If yes, he's fine, regardless of who he's related to.

That would make an interesting writing challenge, you know. How many Mary Sue rules can you break with a character and still keep him/her fresh and interesting? I might try it some day...

[Maiafay]

Please, tell us how you really feel. 

Actually, I agree with you here. The idea that a character has to conform to a certain set of rules to be considered a viable character is bogus. For me, there are two ways I approach characters. For the "main, main" characters (yes, this is how I classify my characters, hence failing almost every writing class I took), you build a character that you know you can keep interesting for however long the story is. That means no characters that are boring, whether they be a Sleepy Boo (great name ) or a Mary Sue. But it's not the rules that make these characters, it's the authors. Any character can be dull in the wrong hands, just as any character can be brilliant in the right hands. For my "kinda main" characters, they're built more to fit the story than in and of themselves. Again, the only rule should be that they fit the story and are interesting. No place-holders, and no blatant deus ex machina characters popping up. Things like talking heads are fine, if you can make them more interesting than a straight data drop. Bob's a perfect example of this; he reveals key information, but has a wonderfully twisted way about him that makes him great. So for the character you wrote, for example, the only things that should have mattered was did he fit the story, and was he interesting? If yes, he's fine, regardless of who he's related to.

That would make an interesting writing challenge, you know. How many Mary Sue rules can you break with a character and still keep him/her fresh and interesting? I might try it some day...

I have half a mind to do that myself...just to prove a point...

LOL, me and my "point proving." It gets me in trouble...

[[beatle mania]]

I feel like adding that I put a different character of mine in and he got a 43.
Here is where I voice my dissent.

Compared to the character I put in first, Sunde is a million times more unique, an actual person instead of a lifeless shell who likes to rape and eat people [my other character]. Just because he's sexy and happens to be a genius doesn't make him a bad character.
Does the question ask about his inability to control his impulses? His creepy, unsettling grin he gets everytime sex is mentioned? His addiction to any sort of harmful subject just for the sake of it? His irrational fear of women and any sort of commitment in his relationships? His bouts of fiery anger that leave him unable to control his actions?

The problem with the templates for Mary Sues is that rules, despite their usefullness, are generally obsolete. It is, as others have said, all about the authors.
But then again, I do not see even the most talented of writers making a perfect character who appears out of no where, saves the world and seduces the main character likable or believable.

[King of De Nile]

But then again, I do not see even the most talented of writers making a perfect character who appears out of no where, saves the world and seduces the main character likable or believable.

Absolutely. And a good writer (read: a better writer than moi) could make a perfect character who saves the world and seduces the MC if they build up to it, instead of having the character literally come out of nowhere. Because then the character would fit into the story in a designed place. Would such a character be a Mary Sue? Of course. But he/she would be a Mary Sue who works, regardless of their sex appeal and large... well, brains for starters.

I have half a mind to do that myself...just to prove a point...

LOL, me and my "point proving." It gets me in trouble...

Somehow, I thought you might find the idea intriguing...

[BobSkull]

Well the character for my novel scored a 9. So that's definately good.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

But then again, I do not see even the most talented of writers making a perfect character who appears out of no where, saves the world and seduces the main character likable or believable.

Absolutely. And a good writer (read: a better writer than moi) could make a perfect character who saves the world and seduces the MC if they build up to it, instead of having the character literally come out of nowhere. Because then the character would fit into the story in a designed place. Would such a character be a Mary Sue? Of course.

You think ?  I would not think so at all.  A real character on whom an author is doing the work to make them credible is not the same thing as an auctorial wish-fulfilment fantasy.

[King of De Nile]

You think ?  I would not think so at all.  A real character on whom an author is doing the work to make them credible is not the same thing as an auctorial wish-fulfilment fantasy.

Sorry, I meant according the "rules" of the Mary Sue that some people follow. In actuality, of course it's not. See, that's what happens when you type fast to get back to work. Thanks for the catch!

[Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)]

Sorry, just had bad issues with that test...though, I think Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita should take it. I have a feeling Anita would fail...badly. I think one more book and she'll transcend into Demi-goddom. 

I deliberately ran Merry Gentry through one of those Mary Sue litmus tests and she got the highest score imaginable. Yiggh. Didn't surprise me in the least, since she's such a horrendous character anyway. I can't help hoping there's some salvagable plot buried in all that smut; the real problem with that series is the fact that the writing is so lazy. A more capable writer, or at least one who doesn't seem to be suffering from creative burnout, could probably make something out of the premise, other than a clothesline to hang sex scenes on.

That said, I believe it is possible to create a character that would, on a cursory inspection, fail to pass a Mary Sue litmus test, and yet be a good, well-developed character, depending on the quality of the author's writing and the care they take while creating that character. I have one character whom I've used in several fanfictions, an RPG and some original fiction, who narrowly passed the test, yet he's a generally well-received character. Sure, he has the cliche tragic past (or TWAGIC PAST!!!!111, in fan-kiddie speak): he was left to die at birth by his mother (a prostitute), was rescued by a poor but generally happy family who later had to give him up to a state-controlled children's home (the setting was a world where only licensed people could have children and unlicensed kids were taken into state custody and farmed out to people who met the licensing requirements, but couldn't have kids of their own for whatever reason), where he was later adopted by a wealthy couple who pretty much treated him like a trophy child -- but the guy pretty much let all that slide off him like water off a duck's back. Unlike Mary Sue (or her male counterpart Gary Stu), he didn't angst over it or try to use it as an excuse for people to pity him. His attitude was, "Yeah, sh** happened to me, but hey, I'm still useful to th' ladies... or th' gents who swing that way."

[black roses]

Myself, I think a Mary-Sue is a perfect character with no flaws that makes all the other, canon characters ask OOC. That's basically it.

And as for 14 year old writers... I'm younger, and I post on ff.net, with an original character (Rhiannon Brooks), who happens to be an amazing warrior in the HP fandom, and I still haven't gotten any flames. I'm almost tempted to hook her up w/ a canon character to see what happens. Of course, she's not a main character, just supporting. 

But it's interesting. My favorite thing to do is develop a perfect character and give them one irredemable flaw. And my irredemable, I mean it makes a perfect hero into the darkest of villians. Lawrence is an example. Exceedingly handsome, 27 year old billionaire. Kind. Sauve. Cool. Collected. Intellegent. Perfect. Psychopath. Murderer of 18. Killed his father at age 14. Embezzled millions to start his business.

See my point? Those characters are pretty fun, but you can't use them too often.
 

[Ebontien]

But it's interesting. My favorite thing to do is develop a perfect character and give them one irredemable flaw. And my irredemable, I mean it makes a perfect hero into the darkest of villians. Lawrence is an example. Exceedingly handsome, 27 year old billionaire. Kind. Sauve. Cool. Collected. Intellegent. Perfect. Psychopath. Murderer of 18. Killed his father at age 14. Embezzled millions to start his business.
 

Interesting point, especially since ancient mythologies usually followed that pattern and they survived how long? They've also been redone several times but there's still that one character flaw that stands out and kicks them down.

[Ebontien]

Mary Sue isn't an easily defined term from what I found and discovered over the years. It can be well written. I have read stories where, by these tests, the characters are Sues but the writing was good. The characterisation was good. Things fell through like liquid instead of being shoved down your throat like an eating contest. Case in point, I'll use one of my own as an example. It was when I was getting the hang of writing (slightly translated into training wheels from a tricycle), so I started towards the Anita Blake section. This was loooooong before LKH went crazy and made me wonder "huh?" at the beginning, middle, and end of her books. I wrote in an OC. I wrote in plenty of OCs. I also crossed the thing over with Merry Gentry because I had a mystery that I wanted to explore that A Kiss of Shadows didn't. Looking back, it had a very mediocre start. Very much unimaginative by the state of name and characteristics when you compared it to a number of stories in the same category. And do you know what happened? The story snowballed. Reviews piled in as well as emails (especially my favourites of 3-paged emails). I remember sitting in shock, finally coming to realisation that a teacher had told me ages ago before then, I could write. Between chapters 1 to 35 (my first long story), my beta could tell me how she knew I was improving in writing. Putting chapters 1-5 next to chapters 17-21 was a vast improvement in style, characterisation, grammar, spelling, tone, and more. Heck my vocab had gotten larger from looking up new words.

As for criticism, some people don't take them too well. Others love it for the improvements they can make. Like fiches, you have to sift to find the ones that will help you. Relaying back another experience, there was story where the main character was the Sue that many fear and reject. Trying to be helpful, I told her that and tried to suggest things of why she might be getting 0 reviews. Such as not having the world bow down to your character's feet. She took the story down the next day and I felt like a heel for doing that. I was trying to help and it blew up in my face. There are people out there who would enjoy ripping a Sue to pieces. That isn't going to help. It's going to make the writer spiteful. It's going to make them clam up some more. They might be a very good writer buried deep down but because they committed the Sue sin, they might never try to surface.

Getting to the point, an OC, Mary Sue or not, is like fanfiction. It's a learning tool. It can make and break you on its own without people trying to smash you into the ground because you are not following their rules. Also, by inserting in a new character, it can help you develop a thicker hide to criticism and especially to flames because in the publishing world, you'll find reviewers who will tear apart your story soon after it's been advertised and sold on Amazon if you get there. Just look at a couple of the reviews given to White Night by some "professionals" who don't seem to have read the book.

[WonderandAwe]

My basic definition of a Mary Sue is a character that is basically worshiped by the other characters with little or no reason (except for maybe the random bad guy but no one likes him/her anyways). 

Mary Sue can do no wrong.  She has a lesson to teach everyone.  She understands everything because she has "been there" due to her "Tragic Past."

It's fun to be Mary Sue.  I'm sure everyone has a Mary Sue in the back of thier minds at one point in thier writing life.  Most Mary Sues never make it to paper, or if they do, they are chopped down and turned into a more realistic character (hopefully). 

Of course there are the opposite of Mary Sue (which I am guilty of creating).  Let's call him Bobby Sue.  They are the characters that are perfect but for some reason everyone hates them.  There really isn't a cause for that hate, except for some superficial quality.   

[Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)]

My basic definition of a Mary Sue is a character that is basically worshiped by the other characters with little or no reason (except for maybe the random bad guy but no one likes him/her anyways). 

Mary Sue can do no wrong.  She has a lesson to teach everyone.  She understands everything because she has "been there" due to her "Tragic Past."

That's a very good way to define this literary enfant terrible in a very precise nutshell.