Question on the look of evocations

[Logan01X]

basically i wondering if with evocations your creating the element or just manipulation them in the environment? Most elements (going with the traditional earth, air, fire, water and spirit) are dont really make to much difference.

Spirit evocations are basicly using the life energies of all living things like with ki, like Ryu's Hadoken or the kamehameha from DBZ and Harry's Shield Spell.

Air is pretty evident, its all around us. Fire, if its manipulation and not creating, is igniting the oxygen in the air to create the effect.

Water i'm guessing, like Carlos's Entropy Shield, is manipulation the hydrogen and oxygen in the air to make water or using a near by source like in the Grasping Branches (animating the water in the tree).

But earth is where i'm really wondering, if you were to do a ranged attack or a block with earth, would you be tearing up the cement or pavement, kinda like in avatar the last air bender? If earth evocations work like that, it probably causes about as much collateral damage as fire and subtlety goes right out the window.

 So do evocations create the energies from nothing (which goes against every known law of the universe) or does it work more like bending for avatar? either way i doesnt matter much just looking for input on how people think it works.

[Mal_Luck]

For Earth blocks, I see it as using magically charged magnetism or gravity to do the block.

I've also seen some people employing "ki" powers by re-purposing the Hunger stress track and having it fed by meditating. But Harry's shield spell from what I seen is use of Spirit/Force rather than "ki."

Harry usually has one good chat or inner monologue about physics and magic about every other book (Now that I think about it, he may have one in every book). If I recall correctly there is one in Dead Beat (maybe a couple) between him and Butters. I think he also talks about it when he froze the lake in White Night.

[Lanodantheon]

It appears to me it is and can be both.

Harry in the books describes how he uses the forces of creation to create fire out of thin air. He doesn't say anything about igniting the air, just that he makes flame and it behaves like real flame.

SO, in that way it is out of thin air. But Morgan uses pieces of concrete in Dead Beat, so it is not all out of thin air.

I have a feeling though from how Harry describes it that manipulating the environment ala Bending is just plain easier. In the system, this is both fluff and can be described as tagging aspects or placing new aspects on the environment.

I personally say that thin air vs. Bending depends on both the Wizard and the situation/spell in question.

The question shouldn't be, "How does it work" it should be, "How do you want it to work.

As far as Earth goes, bending it would be a hell of a lot easier, but with the elements you are forgetting all the parts of the elements in play.

If you are using the soil part of earth, you could be tearing up the earth. For a more elegant solution, you could gather up the dust and particulates of everything around you to do the same job. You could also use the catch-all "Short-lived ectoplasm" method for that.
But Earth can do more than just manipulate soil.

I have a character in my game that uses the Gravity part of Earth for a block and attacks. Electricity can also be used by Earth Wizards. As can anything related to Electromagnetism.

Going off the more esoteric and....."Spirit" of Earth, you could use the stability element of Earth to make stones out of literally air molecules, making the air harder by infusing it with the energy of earth(That is an example more out there). You could also make your own skin as hard as rock with the same method.

It depends on the Wizard and how you justify it.

Plus, at the end of the day it's your game. If you say that all Earth Magic in you game causes collateral damage period, end of discussion, that's your game. Same with if you say you can make Earth and Stone out of thin air.

Me? My Earth Wizard will laugh hysterically as a bullet hits his gravity Block and orbits around him as though he's the new center of the universe.

[KOFFEYKID]

Fire is more versatile than you think, a more accurate way to describe fire would be Controlling temperature. You can pull heat out of an area to freeze it, or put heat into an area to ignite it. Keep that in mind when you consider fire.

[Mal_Luck]

Fire is more versatile than you think, a more accurate way to describe fire would be Controlling temperature. You can pull heat out of an area to freeze it, or put heat into an area to ignite it. Keep that in mind when you consider fire.

Makes me wish the Fire section was larger, or they had a "Where does Ice come from?" (I could see it also coming from Water) sidebar like they did for Lightning.

[neko128]

The important part of your post, from my point of view, is your last sentence:

So do evocations create the energies from nothing (which goes against every known law of the universe) or does it work more like bending for avatar? either way i doesnt matter much just looking for input on how people think it works.

From my point of view, they're not creating energy from nothing and thus violating the laws of the universe; they're just accepting that the universe is rather more complicated than Physics normally allows for and bending those same laws.

To go back to your other thoughts, though...  In my own head, it helps to think of it all as energy manipulation, with the proviso that it's strongly influenced by belief.  It's all energy transfer.  Setting something on fire?  Creating fire - pouring pure energy into the region - or igniting fire - as you said, burning the oxygen in the air - and then directing it.  Air?  Applying energy to move the atmosphere around you.  Water?  Using energy to manipulate humidity, move water or whatever.

And sometimes the energy is more abusive of physics - actually converting one substance into another, like forming a cloud of poison gas in an otherwise normal room.

The most important thing to remind you of, though, and something that Harry brings up repeatedly, is that magic doesn't work if you don't believe in it.  While it doesn't logically follow that magic *does* work if you *do* believe in it, it's blatantly clear that magic is shaped by the mind of the person causing it - and it colours it greatly.  My hypothetical mage Hobbes's limits are completely different from my friend's hypothetical mage Calvin, simply because one was brought up on Dungeons and Dragons and elementalists and all that, while the other was brought up believing in psychics and ghosts and the Holy Templars channeling god's power.  Neither is *wrong* - they just have completely different limits based on it.

So to actually give my answer to your question...  What's earth magic?  Is it ripping up concrete and earth, or is it creating "mystical rock" out of mid-air?  Or something else?  It just depends.  The effect is the same (within reason), and so it's much more a matter of what you and your characters think...  Because the "wrong" one won't work, by definition, since you don't believe in it.  :-P

[Wyrdrune]

do not forget - if something seems to be created from nothing - theres often ectoplasm from the nevernever or wherever involved.