Trying to understand social "combat"

[zenten]

So this is how social rolls have been used for the most part in game.

There are generally just two or three characters involved total, with the PC (or sometimes two PCs) going up against an NPC.  Manoeuvres are used to generate temporary aspects to be tagged for invoking on social attacks.  There are also assessment actions being used.  The main rolls however are social attacks.

How we've been handling them is you roll the relevant skill, roll a relevant skill to resist (usually discipline), and then this gets applied (usually as mental instead of social stress), or the target has the option to do a minor concession to the roll, but the social combat continues.  From reading over the book this doesn't seem to be right though.  Can someone help me figure this out?

[sinker]

One difference I can see is that mental stress should only be dealt in a few instances. Mental stress is representative of a person's sense of self. As such dealing mental stress (or more appropriately mental consequences) to someone indicates that you are causing deep self-doubt and emotional scars, the likes of which may require therapy to heal. Very few people should be able to cause that much damage to a person that they are not very well acquainted with. Intimidation is one exception however (perhaps not all intimidation though).

[newtinmpls]

"Mental stress is representative of a person's sense of self. As such dealing mental stress (or more appropriately mental consequences) to someone indicates that you are causing deep self-doubt and emotional scars, the likes of which may require therapy to heal."

My understanding is that stress on any track is a non-serious thing (since it disappears by the next scene) while actual consequences would be more serious - or minor as the case may be. I don't think "flustered and blushing" needs therapy while "questioning my values" might well.

Dian

[devonapple]

What is a Social Conflict?
•   Two or more opposing agendas
•   Resolving without violence
•   Requires participants to be very clear about the nature of the conflict and what is at stake

What's possibly stake?
•   instilling a false sense of security
•   ruining public reputation
•   damaging personal relationships
•   still, mostly transient

Which skills can I use?
Depends on the nature of the conflict. Some examples:
o   Facedown (Intimidation versus Conviction/Presence; Rapport for Maneuvers, such as to win allies in the crowd)
o   Assault on someone's reputation (Contacts and Deceit for attack; Presence and Rapport for defense; Resources and Contacts for maneuvers
o   Bribery (Rapport and Resources versus Conviction/Deceit)

What can I do?
Attack
Deceit, Intimidation, Rapport; other skills as contextually warranted

options:
Cat and Mouse:
Use Deceit to place Aspects on unwitting targets reflecting misinformation; social attack - convincing lies; can be revealed if you lose the conflict
Active: inflict consequences on a target which favor you in later exchanges)

Intimidation:
Interrogation (active: "bad cop"): can use in conjunction with a "good cop" with Deceit/Rapport
Social Attacks (active: deal Social stress): blunt, ugly and expedient; can use any justifiable Social skill as defense
Provocation (active: get target to lose their cool):
Threats (active: can theoretically deal Mental stress): works in both physical and social situations; depends on relative power and relative ability to control the situation - targets with more power enjoy a +2 versus the roll, or actual immunity to the threat

Presence
Charisma (active: can complement Rapport to make a deliberate impression)
Command (active: maneuver to place Well Coordinated or similar aspects on a group; command a mob): can be modified be Performance if applicable
Chit-Chat: Rapport to roll maneuvers and attacks to subtly get information; Rapport to grab and keep someone's attention

Maneuver
Empathy, Deceit - other skills as contextually warranted

options
Cat and Mouse
use Deceit to place Aspects on unwitting targets reflecting misinformation

Opening Up
use Rapport to make a good impression - the first time you meet someone; may interact with Presence
•   success = temporary, favorable Aspect for that scene
•   failure= temporary, detrimental Aspect for that scene

False Face Forward
use Deceit (modified by Rapport skill); Deceit versus Empathy
•   success allows you to provide a false Aspect to the reader
•   later attempts to tag that aspect will fail
        o   may cost deceived person a FP
        o   may return that FP to place a "snookered" aspect on the target (p 114)

Defend
Empathy, Rapport - other skills as contextually warranted

options
Social Defense
Rapport versus Deceit - sort truth from fiction

Closing Down
Rapport for a full defensive action (+2) against Empathy reads
•   clearly obvious defensive strategy: stone-faced
•   opting to reveal nothing at all

Emotional Control
   Discipline versus Intimidation

False Face Forward
use Deceit (modified by Rapport skill)

Deceit versus Rapport: foil attempts to read you; encourage an opponent to underestimate you; success means your defense only appears to be a failure

Deceit versus Empathy: success allows you to provide a false Aspect to the reader; later attempts to tag that aspect will fail
o   may cost deceived person a FP
o   may return that FP to place a "snookered" aspect on the target (p 114)

Presence
Reputation versus social attacks and maneuvers in appropriate circumstances
Charisma as a passive means of making an impression

Block
•   not usually appropriate
•   reflects a pre-emptive attempt to defend against something
•   still, there can be justifiable situations for a social block

Assessments
learn opponent's Aspects

options
Reading People
Active: Rapport vs target's Rapport/Deceit
one or more shifts = successful Assessment of a previously unknown Aspect
requires ten minutes of intense, personal interaction
can be repeated: # = your skill value

Other skills may require the player to make these Assessments ahead of time, rather than in the middle of the Social Conflict
Resources or Investigation to unearth financial woes
Contacts to learn what others may know about your opponent

Stress and Consequences
•   negative emotional fallout
•   tarnished reputation
•   character-specific reversals or troubles/doubts

[Ophidimancer]

Reading People
Active: Rapport vs target's Rapport/Deceit

Empathy, maybe?

[devonapple]

Empathy, maybe?

That could work, too. These are just my notes from the rules.

[Ophidimancer]

I didn't interpret Rapport as the "Reading People" Skill, from my reading of the rules.

[Sanctaphrax]

As I understand it, Empathy is used for reading people while Rapport is used to persuade them to talk about themselves. So in practical terms, either can be used.

[sinker]

My understanding is that stress on any track is a non-serious thing (since it disappears by the next scene) while actual consequences would be more serious - or minor as the case may be. I don't think "flustered and blushing" needs therapy while "questioning my values" might well.

Dian

You're right, stress isn't supposed to be serious. Consequences on the other hand can be. I'm not sure "flustered and blushing" is an appropriate mental consequence (maybe mild at best). Consider what the books have to say about mental stress and consequences. YS218:

The stress and consequences suffered by mental
conflicts are the deepest of the deep—forays
into suicidal thoughts, emotional dependencies,
deep compulsions, and other behaviors and
thoughts typically classified as dysfunctional
in some way or another. Mental damage is the
kind of damage that changes or erodes a person’s
sense of self; suffering enough of these consequences
over time tends to presage a trip to the
mental ward, or at least to permanent counseling.

[newtinmpls]

True, I was thinking of Flustered And Blushing as a mild consequence. However, now that you remind me of that bit in the rules, I'd have to suggest keeping track (oh, damn another List) of what mental consequences any given character has gotten, and when it seems like ... jeez, I don't know ... a lot, maybe giving them an unpleasant aspect as a result of all this.

Dian