At Evocation speeds and methods

[luminos]

I'm in a debate about some of the effects about sponsored magic and I'm looking for opinions.  The debate is on what it means to cast spells that would normally be thaumaturgy, but due to sponsorship, can be cast at evocation speeds and methods.  One side interprets this to mean that the spell still counts as thaumaturgy, is cast as quickly as an evocation, and uses complexity bonuses from that field of thaumaturgy to increase the amount of power that can safely be used.  The other side interprets this to mean that the spell has the effects from that field of thaumaturgy (including duration), but is effectively treated as an evocation and uses power bonuses to help cast it but not complexity bonuses.  Both sides agree on the issue of duration and letting control bonuses for that kind of thaumaturgy helping the spell casting.

Looking for opinions, arguments and so on.

[KOFFEYKID]

The other portion of the debate deals with whether or not a thaumaturgy spell cast with the speeds and methods of evocation follow the thaumaturgy rules about shifts of power up to your conviction not incurring mental stress.

I argue that bonuses to complexity apply because otherwise it penalizes sponsored magic users by requiring them to take refinement for both power and complexity. None of the Kemmlerian Necromancers in OW have bonuses to Control, Complexity, and Power for necromancy, and you think that they would if specializations in complexity did not aid in casting K. Necromancy with the "Speeds and Methods" of evocation.

I argue that if the duration of thaumaturgy spells remains intact (ie, the ability to create wards as mentioned in the side bar on page 288 would be quite useless if you had to pay for each exchange and not base it off the duration of thaumaturgy wards in general), then the mental stress = 0 (if complexity is below your conviction + control) should also remain intact.

[Korwin]

One side interprets this to mean that the spell still counts as thaumaturgy, is cast as quickly as an evocation, and uses complexity bonuses from that field of thaumaturgy to increase the amount of power that can safely be used.

Thats my reading of the rules.

then the mental stress = 0 (if complexity is below your conviction + control) should also remain intact.

And thats my explanation, why Harry is able to use so much magic (the quantity) in the later books.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, Thaumaturgy isn't an Element, so there's no real way to get power bonuses to it. And I'd personally say that Complexity does for Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation exactly what it does for other Thaumaturgy...allow higher Complexity effects without prep-work or Aspects. Heck, that's even more useful if you're doing it as Evocation.

Yes, this does mean that the Mental Stress may get a little high from exceeding your Conviction from doing this too much (especially if you're good at the variety of Thaumaturgy you're using and going all out), but that seems fairly appropriate. On the other hand, since there are no indications of a base cost ala Evocation, it won't be likely to be as bad as all that.

[luminos]

Yeah, Thaumaturgy isn't an Element, so there's no real way to get power bonuses to it. And I'd personally say that Complexity does for Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation exactly what it does for other Thaumaturgy...allow higher Complexity effects without prep-work or Aspects. Heck, that's even more useful if you're doing it as Evocation.

Yes, this does mean that the Mental Stress may get a little high from exceeding your Conviction from doing this too much (especially if you're good at the variety of Thaumaturgy you're using and going all out), but that seems fairly appropriate. On the other hand, since there are no indications of a base cost ala Evocation, it won't be likely to be as bad as all that.

So you would be okay with allowing an unlimited number of these thaumaturgy at evocation speed spells that are below conviction never causing stress?

I'm basing most of my argument on the specific wording of part of the orange box on YS 288.  The part I'm latching onto says "With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell."

I'm interpreting this to mean that you are still using evocation, but that the things you do with it have the effects of the thaumaturgical spell.  The element being used would be the element granted (or supercharged) by the sponsored magic.

[KOFFEYKID]

Yeah, Thaumaturgy isn't an Element, so there's no real way to get power bonuses to it. And I'd personally say that Complexity does for Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation exactly what it does for other Thaumaturgy...allow higher Complexity effects without prep-work or Aspects. Heck, that's even more useful if you're doing it as Evocation.

Yes, this does mean that the Mental Stress may get a little high from exceeding your Conviction from doing this too much (especially if you're good at the variety of Thaumaturgy you're using and going all out), but that seems fairly appropriate. On the other hand, since there are no indications of a base cost ala Evocation, it won't be likely to be as bad as all that.

except that the book gives you examples that say you can use your sponsored magic as an element in and of it self, in addition to supercharging an element.

In addition, Summer magic may be used as an element for evocation, allowing evocation spell effects that encourage wildness, birth, growth, renewal, and warmth.

In addition, Winter magic may be used as an element for evocation, allowing evocation spell effects that encourage wildness, decay, slumber, death, and cold.

[Deadmanwalking]

So you would be okay with allowing an unlimited number of these thaumaturgy at evocation speed spells that are below conviction never causing stress?

Absolutely. 5 shift (or lower) Thaumaturgy is nice and all, but except for duration, in combat it's usually less useful than, say, 6 shift Evocation (available casually with Focus items and specialties). Warding is a notable exception, but 5 shift Wards, while cool, are hardly unbeatable.

except that the book gives you examples that say you can use your sponsored magic as an element in and of it self, in addition to supercharging an element.

True, but it specifically refers to "an Element for Evocation" so any bonuses to the Sponsored Magic Element are going to be explicitly Evocation only bonuses. Thaumaturgy cast via Evocation's methods still strikes me as a very different thing from Evocation itself.

[luminos]

Absolutely. 5 shift (or lower) Thaumaturgy is nice and all, but except for duration, in combat it's usually less useful than, say, 6 shift Evocation (available casually with Focus items and specialties). Warding is a notable exception, but 5 shift Wards, while cool, are hardly unbeatable.

5 shift wards are like super versions of 5 shift blocks.  They let you stop incoming damage, and reflect it back.  And yet an evocation speed ward is cheaper and easier than an evocation block? 

How about thaumaturgic veils at evocation speed?  You can cast low grade veils that cover a huge area, but if you make a personal veil its more expensive?

What about direct attacks using thaumaturgic effects, like a super-low grade version of the exploding heart spell, and at evocation speeds?  Its okay to have an infinite number of free casts of these?

[Deadmanwalking]

Sure. As Sponsored Magic, so your sponsor better approve of what you're doing. And which will likely give you one of the effects you just listed at most (Hellfire, Seelie and Unseelie Magic can grant attacks but not either of the other effects you mention, while Soulfire can grant it all...but only if God wills it...and costs extra over mosr Sponsored Magic anyway). And if you keep doing it again and again I'd say you probably start racking up some serious debt to your sponsor, which you'll need to pay off eventually.

Sponsored Magic is potent and deadly, but there are definite long term costs.

[Victim]

It's not really Evocation methods if you're dodging the mental stress that's part of the evocation method.  It would just be at evocation speed.

Warding is a notable exception, but 5 shift Wards, while cool, are hardly unbeatable.

Yeah, they don't have to be unbeatable.  They just have to be lots better than a normal block.  Since they don't spend shifts for duration - pretty essential IMO if you want to do anything besides maintain the shield - a 5 power Ward is more equivalent to 7 power block that gets 2 extra exchanges.  Plus it comes with the reflecting bonus.  And it shouldn't take stress to do it?

[KOFFEYKID]

It's not really Evocation methods if you're dodging the mental stress that's part of the evocation method.  It would just be at evocation speed.

Yeah, they don't have to be unbeatable.  They just have to be lots better than a normal block.  Since they don't spend shifts for duration - pretty essential IMO if you want to do anything besides maintain the shield - a 5 power Ward is more equivalent to 7 power block that gets 2 extra exchanges.  Plus it comes with the reflecting bonus.  And it shouldn't take stress to do it?

If you look on the sidebar that explains what exactly "with evocations methods and speed" you'll see exactly what methods are applied to a thaumaturgy spell. The Mental Stress issue isn't even mentioned in the text there. So it stands to reason that part is not different from when you cast a thaumaturgy spell normally.

[Deadmanwalking]

It's not really Evocation methods if you're dodging the mental stress that's part of the evocation method.  It would just be at evocation speed.

Hmm. Possibly true. Maybe we need to get an official word on this part.

Yeah, they don't have to be unbeatable.  They just have to be lots better than a normal block.  Since they don't spend shifts for duration - pretty essential IMO if you want to do anything besides maintain the shield - a 5 power Ward is more equivalent to 7 power block that gets 2 extra exchanges.  Plus it comes with the reflecting bonus.  And it shouldn't take stress to do it?

It's not as unbalancing as you're suggesting. To even do a 5 shift Ward you need Superb Conviction, and an effective Superb Lore for Warding. You also need an effective Superb Discipline to do it at all reliably, and can't make it a Rote, but items can grant the second two, I suppose. And you need Sponsored Magic of a type that doesn't even exist (none give Warding except, maybe, Soulfire).

Those requirements are probably more stringent than getting 7 shift blocks (Superb in Conviction, Great in Discipline, Evocation and Refinement in a chosen element, 2 item slots), and a 7 shift block is alot more flexible in what it does. It's a bit more expensive, sure, but not to an unwieldy degree. For example, you should bear in mind that Wards are stationary, and cast on a location, not a person, and that restricts them significantly.

It's powerful, sure, but it's not like Sponsored Magic doesn't already grant you the ability to not pay the Mental stress under some circumstances.

[KOFFEYKID]

Also Its not like you can attack through your own wards. Im pretty sure you aren't allowed to do that unless you are willing to pay extra shifts to allow maybe bullets to pass through or certain types of magic. For the most part you are going to be stationary while the ward is up, its merely a way to get some breathing room IF you have all of the above as deadmawalking mentioned.

[luminos]

It's powerful, sure, but it's not like Sponsored Magic doesn't already grant you the ability to not pay the Mental stress under some circumstances.

Which circumstances are these?

[Victim]

If you look on the sidebar that explains what exactly "with evocations methods and speed" you'll see exactly what methods are applied to a thaumaturgy spell. The Mental Stress issue isn't even mentioned in the text there. So it stands to reason that part is not different from when you cast a thaumaturgy spell normally.

It might be redundant with "The spell is cast like an evocation:"  Taking stress is part of the gathering power step of evocation, which is referenced in the sidebar, as opposed to being its own step.

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Nothing explicitly references wards.  However, if you can evoke a shield made of summer fire, why not a longer ward?  Or create lasting plant growth (with super thorns) to do it?  The domains of sponsored magic are more thematic than strictly mechanical categories.