Author Topic: Can Dresden Files RPG handle an Immortal 'Highlander' style character?  (Read 21461 times)

Offline Rel Fexive

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That's the easiest and so best way, yes.  And killing another immortal makes for a good significant milestone, since the justification for advancement is simply "I killed another immortal and absorbed his quickening".  No other rules required.
THE DOCTOR: I'll do a thing.
RIVER SONG: What thing?
THE DOCTOR: I don't know. It's a thing in progress. Respect the thing!

Tharios

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I would think the Quickening could simply be represented by invoking your character's "Immortal Swordsman" high concept any time the accumulated knowledge and skills would be relevant, which would effectively mean "at will, unless it's absurd."

Obviously, you'd get a fate point for beheading another immortal since you've just lived up to your high concept aspect in the truest way possible.
Fair enough.  I could go with that.

Offline Jeckel

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Just let me say right off that I am neither using, nor allowing myself to remember any aspect of the franchise other then the original movie and the original series, and I'm going to assume everyone else is as well. Let us not speak of the other.. attempts.. at Highlander. ;)

There were a lot of good points and they helped me in general to shift my mind more toward Fate and away from a more numbers specific way of making things. Thanks to all for the suggestions so far and I think this second try is much better.

I like ryanroyce's Immortal power. It handles many aspects of the Immortals that I thought cluttered up the template. However, I would change two things. First, the Ageless text would be, "As a side-effect of your supernatural existence, your lifespan is extended indefinitely. In game terms this will rarely have relevance." Second, I would give it at least a -1 cost because taking Supernatural Sense to sense vampires or were-wolves would cost something, and even just the accumulation of almost useless effects shouldn't be totally free.

I choose Marked by Power and Supernatural Sense because they seemed to complement each other, but I think I was just try to put to many things down with costs and numbers when it just needed to be text and role-play. But in the end, both it and the Supernatural Sense are covered nicely under the Immortal Power.

In my personal opinion, Immortals should get at least one fate point and one skill rank with each Immortal they behead. To me, that is part of what they are, gaining power and skills from each of the fallen. However, I'm not one to think that my style of GMing is the way everyone plays. So, I figure leaving it as a GM decision on which Milestone to give, if any, is the best solution. To that end, I added an effect to the Immortal power, The Quickening, see below.

I also read over the three recovery powers a few times and I changed Supernatural Recovery to Mythic. The power says "You heal faster than anyone should be able to." and that sounds like Immortals to me. As I think was mentioned in an earlier post, I found no mention of sleep benefits on the wikipedia pages or in the WoD fan-rules, so I added a catch that the sleep thing does not apply and that really focuses the power purely around healing. I also fine tuned the text to cover the things I saw mentioned, reattaching limbs and healing of the neck area.

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Here is the updated template.

Musts: A high concept that denotes status as an Immortal (e.g., Honorable Immortal or Immortal With a Death-wish) must be taken. In addition, Immortals are required to take the following supernatural powers:

* Immortal [-1]: Can't be an Immortal without this.

* Mythic Recovery [-6 + 5 = -1]: This only applies to the healing of internal and external wounds. Immortals will not re-grow limbs, though any severed appendage - except for the head - can be held to the original wound and it will reattach with time. Any damage done to the neck gains no benefit from this power and will heal at the normal rate, if it heals at all. It is also important to note that Immortals have the same sleep requirements as mundane mortals, so the Indefatigable effect does not apply.
* The Catch [+5]: Applies to something specific (+2), Can be bypassed by amputation and any neck damage (+2), and knowledge of the catch is discoverable through research (+1).

Options: Every Immortal is unique. There are no specific restrictions on stunts, besides the normal refresh cut-off rules, and Supernatural Powers are possible, with GM approval.

Important Skills: Endurance, Lore

Minimum Refresh Cost: -2

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Here is an Immortal power based on that posted by ryanroyce. I removed mention of the recovery ability, added the quickening effect, raised the cost to -1, and changed some text to reflect the new cost.

Immortal [-1]

Description: You are an Immortal, ageless from the time of your first death, and you are not alone... yet. There can be only one.
Note: In terms of game effects, the uses of this ability are so minor and inherently balanced that they’re really almost cosmetic; hence the zero cost.

Skills Affected: Lore

Effects:
Ageless. As a side-effect of your supernatural existence, your lifespan is extended indefinitely. In game terms this will rarely have relevance.

Awareness. You can automatically sense the presence of another Immortal that comes within 2 zones of you, as if you had succeeded on a Lore: Mystic Perception roll. However, the other Immortal becomes aware of you even as you become aware of them, so no advantage is ever gained by either one. Other creatures may perceive this aspect of you through a Lore check, though success is not guaranteed.

Holy Ground. No Immortal knows for certain what would happen if they killed another on holy ground, they only know that they absolutely mustn't. As such, GMs are free to set their own penalties for violating this rule. Suggestions include negating this power entirely, at which point Father Time returns to collect his due, or inflicting an extreme consequence as if the Immortal had broken a magically binding oath (YS 274).

The Quickening. When an Immortal is beheaded, this passive ability grants the nearest living Immortal with a single fate point. In effect, this is the result of an automatic compel to the receiving Immortal's high concept. In addition, the benefits of either a Minor, Major, or Significant Milestone are received. The choice of which milestone - or is a milestone will be granted at all - is left up to the GM, but will generally reflect the strength of the decapitated Immortal. The milestone takes effect immediately and replaces the very next milestone that would be awarded to that character. In the event that this power is trigger multiple times in a single scene, it is recommended that only the fate point be given after the first activation. Optionally, the GM may limit the use of any milestone effects to those appropriate to the decapitated Immortal.

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So... suggestions, opinions, text that needs to be reworded or added? Is the Quickening effect specific enough while still giving needed options, and is the power to cheap since it can give fate points and a Milestone? Did I do the Recovery Catch wrong, or is that -1 cost correct?

Thanks for all the input, this is coming along nicely. :)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 07:56:02 AM by Jeckel »
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Looks good to me. Though I'm a little shaky on the "Something Specific" factor in the Catch. I can see where you're coming from...but I'm really not sure if it applies. Still, the worst that would cause would be a reduction to Supernatural Recovery, and it looks good aside from that.

Offline JustinS

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Looks good to me. Though I'm a little shaky on the "Something Specific" factor in the Catch. I can see where you're coming from...but I'm really not sure if it applies. Still, the worst that would cause would be a reduction to Supernatural Recovery, and it looks good aside from that.
I agree on the something specific too. If it was could only heal from swords, or only heals the hands, that would be specific. This sounds more like a variation of the red vampire belly weak spot. Not sure about cutting the Indefatigable, have we seen an immortal tire(also as a way to do the not drowning), if not, the whole running on the beach scene does at least imply some extra reserves.

Still, -3 mythic recovery, for a -4 package cost.
Plenty of refresh left to take sword stunts in many games.

Tharios

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Hmm...how about this modified version of Mythic Recovery (needs a new name for Immortals).

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Immortal Healing [-6]
Description: If you don't already know the general idea, go play on the swingset kiddo.
Musts: This power must be attached to a specific catch of "decapitation", worth +4 refresh (+2 reasonably accessible means, +2 well-known or easily discoverable).  This power cannot be taken by characters without the Immortal template.  Characters with this power may NOT take any other Toughness powers.
The Catch, Decapitation: This catch applies only when the Immortal is Taken Out by physical stress and consequences, and the opponent chooses to specifically behead the Immortal as part of their victory conditions.  If the opponent does not choose to do so, the Immortal recovers according to the power's normal function.
Options: None.
Skills Affected: None.
Effects:
Total Recovery: You’re able to recover from physical harm that would leave a normal person permanently damaged. You can recover totally from any consequence (excluding extreme ones) with no other excuse besides time; simply waiting long enough will eventually heal you completely.  This has the added benefit that you do not succumb to age, and will effectively live forever, though this will have little to no impact on gameplay.
Really Amazingly Fast Recovery: Out of combat,you may recover from all physical consequences before the beginning of the next scene after you receive them! The exception is extreme consequences, which are not affected by this power.
Ha! You Call That a Hit: Three times per scene, you may clear away a mild physical consequence as a supplemental action.  Drowning, starvation, dehydration, and exposure are considered mild physical consequences that occur only once per scene for the purposes of this effect of this power ONLY.
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Now, as you can see, I removed Indefatigable entirely since immortals don't get any real endurance benefits that I've noticed, added a bit here and there, and modified three other parts.

I decided that if it's going to be a separate Toughness power of its own, and would be counterproductively redundant with other toughness powers, that only those who possess the Immortal template may take the power.  Also, those who have this power cannot take other toughness powers, or else you'd end up with Immortals who can't die EVEN if you cut their head off, which is not kosher.

Extreme consequences seem like a good blanket problem for Immortals to be stuck with, explaining why they aren't covered in scars and why some injuries never heal right, and why they can't regrow hacked-off limbs.  I imagine a hacked off limb HAS to be a pretty extreme consequence.

I took the opportunity to detail a little better just how decapitation relates as a catch to the power, hoping that it would make a little more sense.  I'm not totally sure it's really worth +4 refresh as a catch, but honestly, it doesn't stop them from getting the crap beat out of them now and then though.  Because of the fact that Really Amazingly Fast Recovery only functions OUT of combat, snotty brats like Ritchie can still get the piss kicked out of em by a small, random group of common thugs.

I adjusted "Ha, you call that a hit," to reflect that immortals seem essentially immune to things like drowning, starvation, dehydration, and exposure.  They don't ever drown, they don't starve to "death," they don't "die" of dehydration, and they never "die" of anything like hypothermia, frostbite or any other such environmental condition.  It's reasonable though that slapping more than three of those kinds consequences onto an Immortal might be more than they can handle.

Considering what's been taken from Mythic Recovery, is it reasonable to drop its cost by 1 for this "Immortals Only" version?  Is the Catch too beneficial point-wise for something that will only occur infrequently since they have to be Taken Out first?  Would both possibilities be acceptable?  Maybe only +3 refresh for the catch on a power that costs -5?

Assessments, recommendations?

P.S.
I gotta say, I'm impressed how everyone is on the same wavelength with regard to which aspects of the Highlander franchise to draw from and which to ignore completely.  lol  I'm also impressed no one's brought up "the power that makes their swords appear out of thin air!"

Offline Jeckel

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Yea, I was not to sure about the 'specific' part of the catch, so that is out. I agree, -4 minimum is not bad at all.

Not sure about cutting the Indefatigable, have we seen an immortal tire(also as a way to do the not drowning), if not, the whole running on the beach scene does at least imply some extra reserves.

Both of those are good points. I found no mention of any sleep differences from normal humans, but if someone can provide a source in the first movie or series that could be addressed again. However, with it catched out, it keeps the healing factor high while still keeping the cost low, so I think it works.

...I adjusted "Ha, you call that a hit," to reflect that immortals seem essentially immune to things like drowning, starvation, dehydration, and exposure.  They don't ever drown, they don't starve to "death," they don't "die" of dehydration, and they never "die" of anything like hypothermia, frostbite or any other such environmental condition....

The not drowning is another thing I thought hard about. It has loose canon support at best, but in fanon it is pretty standard. So I think leaving it unmentioned and allowing players to buy that on their own, or GMs to rule that the recovery power handles it since it isn't excluded, is an acceptable solution.

As for the hypothermia, etc, I can't remember any source supporting that, though I do think I remember an Immortal in the series that was stranded on a desert island or something that kept dieing over and over from something like that and it drove him crazy. From a mechanics stand-point I would handle them like I suggested for drowning and just not mention them.

Hmm...how about this modified version of Mythic Recovery

I like it. Assuming there are no objections to more then one custom powers, I think it would make a good addition. :)

I would suggest the name 'Immortal Recovery'. Keep it simple and descriptive, while at the same time clearly placing in the Recovery branch of the power tree.

I especially dig the mention that only Immortal Templates can take the power. I think that would be good to add to the Immortal power.

The catch should probably stick with +3. Everyone seems to agree that is a resonable refund. Personally, I can see some reasons for the second +2, that part describes how hard it is to find out what the catch is, and that would require some research beyound the equivalent of a world-famous novel. So, change the second part of the catch to 'knowledge discoverable through research (+1)' and I would say it works. Also, the catch needs to mention that damage to the neck is uneffected by the power and, at best, heals at the noraml rate.

Characters with this power may NOT take any other Toughness powers. This I don't know about. I see your point, but it could be handle by stating something about Immortal Recovery replacing all other Recovery powers (and maybe Physical Immunity, either in general or specificly to death). That should stop the problem of headless Immortals still being alive, while not restricting super strong or uber tough Immortals.

I would also tend to agree that almost any amputation would count as an extreme consequence, but I'm curious if others also agree. Either way, it is a very elegant way to handle it mechanics-wise.

Total Recovery. Probably just a typo, but I'm assuming it should be "any consequence (excluding extreme physical ones)", the word physical being what I added. Also, I don't think the non-aging part should be tied to the recovery ability. Short of putting the Immortal power and the Immortal Healing power together as one, I think the end of aging effect should stay on the Immortal power.

EDIT: My bad, I reread Inhuman Recovery's Total Recovery Effect and it does say "(excluding extreme ones)" so, what was there is fine and it was me that was messed up. :)

Ha! You Call That a Hit. As I said above, remove the part about 'Drowning, starvation, dehydration, and exposure' being mild consequences and I'm on board.

Other then the things covered and refunded by the catch, the only thing remove from Mythic Recovery is the sleep thing (which like not ageing probably won't come up much) and the Endurance doesn't restrict part (which arguably has some mechanical relevance). Overall, I think -6 with a +3 catch balances well and what was taken away doesn't really need a reduction in cost, but I would like to hear what other who know the whole system better then me think.

And yea, it is cool how everyone is together on the good stuff of the franchise. The same people that would fight to the death over Star Trek or Star Wars prequels would all agree that Highlander sequals are iffy at best and horrible most of the time. But movies aside, taking all the franchise into account would lead to a very bloated template with most of the bloat having maybe one or two vague references in the canon. For those reasons and many more that may be personal and irrational, 99% of the movie and show seqeals aren't worth considering for what we want to make and it rocks that we're all on board with that. :)

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Below is the text I've been working on for the Template. I'm am not a great writer unless a rare moment of inspiration strikes me, but its better to have something then it is to have nothing. If anyone wants to make it better or write up one of their own, that would be sweet.

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Immortal

Immortals are a breed apart. Their power flows from the Quickening, healing their wounds, halting passage of years, and raising them from the dead. Only with the removal of their head will they know the eternal sleep of the grave and pass their power and knowledge on to the victor.

Unless a person destined to be an Immortal is killed by non-natural means, they will live and die a normal life, never manifesting any abilities. However, after the person meets that first death - usually a violent and bloody one - their Immortal powers will be awakened. Indeed, it is believed by many learned scholars that hundreds, if not thousands, of "Immortals" may live completely normal lives and die of old-age without a single soul ever knowing of their potential power.

To speak of 'Immortals' as a cohesive group is no less misleading then lumping all 'Humans' together in one general category. Immortals come from every conceivable background, rich to poor, young to old, royalty to peasant, soldier to scientist, and individuals are as unique as any given mortal human. Though Immortals are each unique, most tend to keep to themselves and avoid other supernaturals when possible. However, the circumstances of their lives, and the driving force of The Game, offer opportunities for many interesting and dangerous situations.

While an Immortal doesn't bring much direct supernatural strength to the table, a knack for the long-haul, and their relative ease at interacting with everyday society, give them an edge that few other non-mundane beings possess. Add in the accumulation of skills and stunts - as well as the possibility of other powers - and Immortals become a force that can hold their own in the world of supernaturals.

Musts: ... and then the rules stuff goes from here.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 12:18:28 PM by Jeckel »
For evil to conquer, good men need only do nothing.
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Tharios

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I was thinking some more, and decided to rearrange things a tad more.

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Immortal Recovery [-6]
Description: If you don't already know the general idea, go play on the swingset kiddo.
Musts: This power always supersedes and replaces all other Recovery powers.  This power cannot be taken by characters without the Immortal template.  This power must be attached to a specific catch of "decapitation", worth +3 refresh (+2 reasonably accessible means, +1 well-known or easily discoverable).
The Catch, Decapitation: This catch applies when the Immortal is Taken Out by physical stress and consequences, and the opponent chooses to specifically behead the Immortal as part of their victory conditions.  If the opponent does not choose to do so, the Immortal recovers according to the power's normal function.  Physical consequences taken that involve the neck area are also subject to the catch and do not benefit from Immortal Recovery.
Options: None.
Skills Affected: Endurance, possibly other physical skills.
Effects:
Total Recovery: You’re able to recover from physical harm that would leave a normal person permanently damaged. You can recover totally from any consequence (excluding extreme ones) with no other excuse besides time; simply waiting long enough will eventually heal you completely.
Really Amazingly Fast Recovery: Out of combat,you may recover from all physical consequences before the beginning of the next scene after you receive them! The exception is extreme consequences, which are not affected by this power.
Vigorous: Endurance never restricts other skills due to a lack of rest.
Shrug It Off: In combat, once per scene, you may clear away a mild physical consequence as a supplemental action.
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After giving it some consideration, I made the following changes.

I took the suggestion about the name, the aging, the bonus Refresh from the Catch, the drowning and such.  Personally, I still think the aging fits better with the recovery, but oh well.

I reworded the must regarding taking this power compared to other recovery powers.  It's now possible to take the actual toughness powers, but the recovery powers are always overwritten by this one, with regard to Immortals only (who are still the only ones who can take this power anyway).

I added back in the bit about Endurance not restricting other skills, but left it at that.  No going without sleep and such.  I figure that alone should make them nigh-superhuman athletes, facilitating scenes like the one on the beach with ease and not much extra ruling.

Immortals never really seem to blow off up to 3 mild consequences DURING combat.  Mostly it seems like they're only slightly more enduring than a pro fighter, if that.  Considering that the only reason Duncan doesn't get beat to crap is because he's a martial arts master with over 100 years experience rather than his ability to recover quickly, while others get their noses busted and don't usually heal til later...seems to justify this.  So, they can blow off 1 mild consequence during combat.

One final thing is occurring to me while I post this though.  Would it be reasonable to just make Immortal versions of all three recovery and even toughness powers?  Different Immortals do seem to recover more swiftly or be harder to hurt sometimes.  Meh, just a thought.

Offline Jeckel

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I added back in the bit about Endurance not restricting other skills, but left it at that.  No going without sleep and such.  I figure that alone should make them nigh-superhuman athletes, facilitating scenes like the one on the beach with ease and not much extra ruling.

I've never really saw a need to remove the Endurance benefit specifically, it was always the lack of need for sleep thing that struck me wrong. I think the Endurance part just kinda got taken away with the sleep. All in all, I don't have a problem with Immortals getting it.

Immortals never really seem to blow off up to 3 mild consequences DURING combat.  Mostly it seems like they're only slightly more enduring than a pro fighter, if that.  Considering that the only reason Duncan doesn't get beat to crap is because he's a martial arts master with over 100 years experience rather than his ability to recover quickly, while others get their noses busted and don't usually heal til later...seems to justify this.  So, they can blow off 1 mild consequence during combat.

I agree that three seemed a bit high, but one also seems a bit low. Two might be a good compromise, but see my comments at the bottom of the post.

One final thing is occurring to me while I post this though.  Would it be reasonable to just make Immortal versions of all three recovery and even toughness powers?  Different Immortals do seem to recover more swiftly or be harder to hurt sometimes.  Meh, just a thought.

If this was any other system, Wod, ADnD, GURPS, whatever, I would agree to a point, but DFRPG being less number/rules heavy, I think keeping the template light on non-fundamentals would be a good thing. Beyond covering the cosmetics, the quickening, and the healing, the template doesn't restrict what else a character could take, so I think the necessary variety is handled without us having to explicitly define it.



All that said, I'm starting to have second thoughts about the new power. The differences between Mythic and Immortal Recovery were small and have now shrunk by one more, the missing Endurance benefit. As it stands, there are three differences, the required Catch, the removal of no sleeping, and the lowering of the consequence soaking.

I think this could be handled in a simpler, and more dynamic, way.

1: Use the custom Decapitation Catch as a template must to cover that part.

2: To me, if the Endurance benefit isn't scrubbed out, then the no sleep stuff is just cosmetic and some simple text in either the musts part or in a 'Note' under the musts part would handle its exclusion just fine.

3: Add a template must that the character must choose one of, Inhuman, Supernatural, or Mythic Recovery. This will allow players and GMs to decide how resilient their Immortals are.

Does this seem a reasonable way to handle it, or is a new power necessary?
For evil to conquer, good men need only do nothing.
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Tharios

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I'm going to tinker with your original power Ryan, based on Jeckel's suggestions.
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Immortal [-1]
Description: You are an Immortal, ageless from the time of your first death, and you are not alone... yet.  Now is the time of the Gathering, and there can be only one.
Skills Affected: None.
Effects:
Ageless:  As a side-effect of your supernatural ability to recover from any injury, your lifespan is extended indefinitely.  You also may not reproduce in any fashion.  In game terms these will rarely have relevance.
Awareness: You automatically sense the presence of other immortals within 2 to 4 zones, determined by the GM in whatever manner best suits the story.  However, those Immortals become aware of you even as you become aware of them, so no advantage is ever gained by either.  This ability does not determine direction, distance, or number, only that one or more Immortals are in the area.  This effect occurs each time a new Immortal is encountered, but only once per scene for any Immortal.
Holy Ground: No Immortal knows for certain what would happen if they killed another on holy ground, they only know that they absolutely mustn't.  As such, GMs are free to set their own penalties for violating this rule.  Suggestions include negating this power entirely, at which point Father Time returns to collect his due, or inflicting an extreme consequence as if the Immortal had broken a magically binding oath (YS 274).
The Quickening: For taking the head of another Immortal, you are immediately granted a Fate point, which you always receive no matter how often you take a head.  Taking an Immortal's head also counts as a milestone, the degree of which to be determined by the GM according to the scope of the battle on the story.  When achieved, this milestone replaces any milestone the Immortal would've normally received with the rest of the group for completing that part of the story.  If you've already received a milestone for taking a head in a specific part of the story, you do not gain one at the conclusion of that part with the rest of the group.
The Catch, Decapitation: This power sets an automatic catch of decapitation for all toughness powers acquired by an Immortal, and no other catch may be defined for those powers.  It is worth either +1 for Inhuman level toughness powers, or +3 for all others.  This catch applies when the Immortal is Taken Out by physical stress and consequences, and the opponent chooses to specifically behead the Immortal as part of their victory conditions.  If the opponent does not choose to do so, the Immortal recovers according to the power's normal function.  Physical consequences taken that involve the neck area are also subject to the catch and do not benefit from toughness powers.
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I'm going to give it some more thought to try and streamline the wording.  I made the power a -1 refresh because it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's mostly irrelevant since that can be changed on a whim at any point in development.

After thinking about it, should the must of the template give the OPTION of Inhuman or better Recovery or Toughness?  Either would serve as well, and both can fit, and it would open one more door to having a greater variety of Immortals right out of the gate.  By adding the catch to Immortal instead, it's a blanket coverage of all toughness powers an Immortal might EVER take, even Physical Immunity...giving powerful immortals extreme potential, without nullifying their defining weakness.

I added the Quickening to it simply because aside from the Fate point, it doesn't do anything more than normal gameplay eventually would, not really worth a power on its own.

I was wondering, would a pair of Lawbreaker-style powers, one for Holy Ground and one for Dueling, really be too much?  Rather than having them be the sorts of concrete penalties other games would impose, that would make them more story-oriented, just like the standard Lawbreaker powers.  The more you break em, the more it taints you, but it makes it reasonable that the cheaters take more heads for it.  Perhaps a Dark Quickening power with musts regarding a certain number of the Lawbreaker-style powers.

That might be a little out there, but I think they're as viable in potential as the Lawbreakers for magic, especially since we don't know for sure what either specifically does...but we DO know Dark Quickenings happen, and why.

Like I said, perhaps the most important thing now is streamlining the wording.  I think so far things have gotten about as refined as they're going to get for now.

Offline Jeckel

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I'm going to tinker with your original power Ryan, based on Jeckel's suggestions.

Ok, looks good all being in the one custom power.

I'm going to give it some more thought to try and streamline the wording.  I made the power a -1 refresh because it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's mostly irrelevant since that can be changed on a whim at any point in development.

True, but as long as the effects are mostly, but not fully, cosmetic a -1 cost seems fair.

After thinking about it, should the must of the template give the OPTION of Inhuman or better Recovery or Toughness?  Either would serve as well, and both can fit, and it would open one more door to having a greater variety of Immortals right out of the gate.

I reread the Toughness powers, and while I agree that mechanically they and the Recoveries would accomplish the same thing, the thematics of Recovery just seem to jive better, and the both canon and fanon seem to accept it as a healing ability as opposed to a defense from damage ability. So I would suggest keeping it a requirement of one of the Recovery powers.

By adding the catch to Immortal instead, it's a blanket coverage of all toughness powers an Immortal might EVER take, even Physical Immunity...giving powerful immortals extreme potential, without nullifying their defining weakness.

That is a stroke of genius. I've been a little leery about possible combinations with Toughness and/or Physical Immunity, but that fixes that.

I added the Quickening to it simply because aside from the Fate point, it doesn't do anything more than normal gameplay eventually would, not really worth a power on its own.

As long as it is somewhere, that will work, and being on the Immortal power gives a little more validity to the -1 cost.

I was wondering, would a pair of Lawbreaker-style powers, one for Holy Ground and one for Dueling, really be too much?  Rather than having them be the sorts of concrete penalties other games would impose, that would make them more story-oriented, just like the standard Lawbreaker powers.  The more you break em, the more it taints you, but it makes it reasonable that the cheaters take more heads for it.  Perhaps a Dark Quickening power with musts regarding a certain number of the Lawbreaker-style powers.

That might be a little out there, but I think they're as viable in potential as the Lawbreakers for magic, especially since we don't know for sure what either specifically does...but we DO know Dark Quickenings happen, and why.

I like the idea of a Lawbreakerish power for Holy Ground and don't think it would be excessive. Not about the Dueling one, are you meaning about it being one-on-one fights and the Lawbreaking power is for two Immortals fighting a single one? If it is, then yea, I also think that would be cool.

Like I said, perhaps the most important thing now is streamlining the wording.  I think so far things have gotten about as refined as they're going to get for now.

I concur, this is looking really good. Besides the text streamlining you mention, I see only one thing that I think needs rewording. Its prob just copy/paste from the original Immortal power post, but the Ageless effect needs the 'recover' part changed to attribute the effect to their quickening energy, something more general, or really anything except tyeing it to their healing ability. My reasoning is that the lack of aging and the ability to heal both stem from the same cause, but neither causes the other. One could heal perfectly but still age, or not age and heal normally. Neither is mutually exclusive or mutually required. Like I said, I'm guessing that it was just copy/paste, but I wanted to put my thoughts on the subject out there so it isn't like I'm just irrationally opposed to agelessness being connected with healing real well. ;)


All in all, I think that works out perfect and will update the template accordingly. When you get the rewording done, post it on up here and I'll get everything polished up into some HTML and BBCode formats. :)
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Offline Jeckel

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Two other small things popped out at me in the Awareness effect.

I think it would be good to work the "as if you had succeeded on a Lore: Mystic Perception roll" part back in, and I like the change to 2 to 4 zones. Secondly, I also suggest including something similar to the original sentence "Other creatures may perceive this aspect of you through a Lore check, though success is not guaranteed." as well. The sense part is the only thing I can think of that isn't already covered by the system from the other Supernaturals' perspective.

But, aside from the few small things I mentioned, I think mechanically it absolutely rocks. Looking forward to hearing your ideas on the Lawbreakeresk powers. :)

For evil to conquer, good men need only do nothing.
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.
When Scientists ask questions, Engineers build answers.

Tharios

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Might be a few days or so, but I'm on it.

Sticking with the Recovery power as the must is a good idea.

Oh, and you were correct about the one-on-one fight rule being the inspiration for the second Lawbreaker-style power.  Immortals ganging up on another Immortal is a no-no, and goes against their very nature...even though neither the movie nor the series make much of a consequence of it other than it corrupts them, much like the standard Lawbreaker powers.

We'll see how it goes.

Anyone else got any canon Immortal combat etiquette besides those two?  Has a list of canon "rules" for Immortal battles ever been fan-published anywhere?  Don't wanna pile on too much, but only two rules just seems...thin.  Otherwise, still totally doable as-is.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Rules:

1. No use of modern or ranged weaponry (guns, tasers, etc.). We've seen Immortals do it...but never anyone sympathetic.

2.  Never on Holy Ground. Never broken.

3. No ganging up (or accepting mortal help). Again, seen, but never by anyone laudable.



Those are all I can think of off the top of my head, actually.

Tharios

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Rules:

1. No use of modern or ranged weaponry (guns, tasers, etc.). We've seen Immortals do it...but never anyone sympathetic.

2.  Never on Holy Ground. Never broken.

3. No ganging up (or accepting mortal help). Again, seen, but never by anyone laudable.



Those are all I can think of off the top of my head, actually.
Still helpful.  Honestly, even three is good enough...two just seemed, wrong.

Considering the nature of an Immortal's existence, I can definitely see that certain "dishonorable" melee tactics...such as shooting your opponent to "death"...would constitute a Lawbreaker-worthy offense.  Their very existence is defined by single melee combat to the death, shooting or gassing someone to take their head while they're helpless would go against their very essence.  As you pointed out...only the jerk-off Immortals like Xavier St.Cloud ever do it, and they're the most likely to have these Immortal-only Lawbreaker powers.

I don't personally think there are any others, but if anyone else comes up with any, feel free.