Aren't Claws Too Weak?

[Deadmanwalking]

All Aspects generate equal effects, this does not make them all equal.  For example, the aspect of "BROKEN FINGER": I can invoke it, maybe, during any grapple, but not a whole lot else (without getting really creative).  The aspect of "BLINDED" on the other hand, I can invoke on any defense roll that I take for as long as the Aspect (or consequence) lasts.

True enough. But claws don't really expand those options, certainly not compared to the cat's claws menioned previously.

Whether they're aspects or consequences doesn't matter much, and as a GM you're going to have to be incredibly convincing for me to allow you to inflict "BLEEDING" without having a weapon that can make someone bleed.  

Even if you used Inhuman Strength to rip their stomach open, leaving intestines everywhere? That's admittedly more "Gutted" than "Bleeding", but if you aim for the stomach wall and they only take a minor consequence "Bleeding" might be quite appropriate. You can likely do the same as a mortal with the Lethal Weapon stunt.

It's all about how vicious you're willing to be.

The strength of this system is just how flexible and abstract it is, the weakness is just how flexible and abstract it is.

It's abstract in a sense, but it's also surprisingly concrete and balanced. Which is why things like this are a problem for me, since they stick out like sore thumbs (at least to me).

As for using Claws as an easy expression for other attributes (like horns) why don't you just make up a different power?  As is pretty specifically stated, nothing in Your Story, or Our World is a shopping list, it is not comprehensive, and it is not the end all be all.  You want a different power, make a different power, talk to your GM, and if it's reasonable you will almost certainly be allowed to take it.

Except that the book explicitly tells you to use Claws for things like that. So alot of people will feel obligated to take the listed power, just because that's how these things work.

If the book were out with no chance of errata, I'd be suggesting house rules as opposed to revising the book...but they are in fact still revising the book. So I'm suggesting that.

Powers are not mechanics, if you want to do something cool, do it.  Instead of changing the powers that you don't think are perfect, make one that you think is.

As stated above, I'm not really doing this for me. I'm used to house ruling the hell out of games (the DFRPG a hell of a lot less than most)...but the people behind the game are actually here reading, at least potentially, and if a group of people bring an issue to their attention, they're likely to look at it and maybe even change it, which (if it's a change for the better, and it's likely to be or they wouldn't make it) improves the game for all those people who are hesitant about making house rules and changes.

[paul_Harkonen]

Some story tellers will view any attempt to make custom powers or change power as "cheese wheasily attempts to power game" regardless of weather or not such is intended to be part of the system.

This is a failing of those story tellers, and in fact, those same story tellers are the ones least likely to actually use this sort of house rule.

Do some research into martial arts. its trivially easy to make a person bleed with bare hands. not to mention far more crippling aspects such as, plucked out your eye

It is pretty easy to make someone bleed, it's not particularly easy to draw five 6 inch long, half inch deep gashes down someone's back.  Or particularly easy to take a chunk out of someone's leg without a natural or man-made weapon.  You are correct about "MISSING AN EYE" but the claws add to the flexibility of your attacks.

One last note because I noticed it earlier, but no one has said anything about it.  Why are we assuming that powers are supposed to be more powerful than stunts?  Powers allow you to do things that mortals can't, that doesn't mean they are meant to allow you to do them better for less.  In fact, Stunts are supposed to give you (roughly) two shifts of effect per point of refresh.  Powers are supposed to also give you two shifts of effect per point of refresh (YS 158 and YS 148 respectively)

It's true about trying to make the adjustment to the power level before the books are printed, and that makes sense.  That said, if your fix is "add one to the physical stress" or "reduce the refresh by one" it seems to push the balance the other way.  No mortal stunt allows you to take one refresh for +2 stress to any physical attack (in fact, it is explicitly stated that stunts should not work that way (YS 147)).  Inhuman Strength adds 2 stress for purely strength attacks, true, and perhaps Claws ought to have some other effect (such as climbing or other elements) built in explicitly to the entry, but I don't see a compelling reason why 1 refresh = 2 stress.

Finally, there is no reason to take Claws the power over Cat's Claws the item.  This seems perfectly reasonable to me.  Powers don't have to be better than normal humans.  A well prepared, high skill, high stunt mortal should be able to emulate the abilities of magical characters, even if only for the sake of game balance and giving people a reason to play a mortal.

[Moriden]

Finally, there is no reason to take Claws the power over Cat's Claws the item.  This seems perfectly reasonable to me. 

If a power can be entirely simulated by an easily obtainable mundane item. then there is no reason to ever take that power. this is a flaw in a system.

[Falar]

Why are we assuming that powers are supposed to be more powerful than stunts?

Supernatural powers are very much the same as stunts, although they tend to pack more of a wallop. However, they often have more requirements before they can be taken—usually, at the very least, a high concept aspect indicating that the abilities represented by the supernatural powers are appropriate to the character.

-Your Story, 146

Taking a look at the power before Claws, Breath Weapon, you'll note that it is 2 refresh for a Ranged, Weapon:2 that is automatically concealed. On the other side, Claws is a Weapon:1. Period. You can't use it at ranged, it's by default seen. If you get it to Weapon:2, it's actually competitive with Breath Weapon instead of being solidly outclassed by it.

[paul_Harkonen]

"Pack more of a wallop" is due to higher refresh costs.

They're built much like several mortal stunts all smashed together, getting two shifts (and maybe a little extra) of shift for every one refresh point they cost.

-Your Story 158, emphasis mine

Taking a look at the power before Claws, Breath Weapon, you'll note that it is 2 refresh for a Ranged, Weapon:2 that is automatically concealed. On the other side, Claws is a Weapon:1. Period. You can't use it at ranged, it's by default seen. If you get it to Weapon:2, it's actually competitive with Breath Weapon instead of being solidly outclassed by it.

I want to say that I agree that there is a power discrepancy between the powers.  I disagree that Claws is vastly underpowered, and feel that either solution makes them more powerful than is intended.  I also want to note that Breath weapon is ranged and a wpn 2, but that it does not stack with any other effect, giving claws an advantage in many cases.  Plus your breath weapon is useless against a fairly large number of targets (no matter what element you pick).

I will say that a bonus to certain maneuvers would not be out of line.  Another option is to add an upgrade to them "Supernaturally Sharp\hard".  For one extra refresh you could add two points of shift (for a total of -2 refresh and +3 effect, a perfectly reasonable number in my mind) to the effect.

If a power can be entirely simulated by an easily obtainable mundane item. then there is no reason to ever take that power. this is a flaw in a system.

This is not true on either count. 
A) You can take this power if you want your wolf\cat\bear form to have any sort of weapon.  The reasons are cosmetic\character driven.  There is no rules reason to take them, but that does not mean there is no reason to take the power.
B)  Mundane and supernatural powers being interchangeable is not a flaw in the system.  In fact, the option to do one thing many ways seems like a strength to the system to me.

[Moriden]

This is not true on either count.
A) You can take this power if you want your wolf\cat\bear form to have any sort of weapon.  The reasons are cosmetic\character driven.  There is no rules reason to take them, but that does not mean there is no reason to take the power.
B)  Mundane and supernatural powers being interchangeable is not a flaw in the system.  In fact, the option to do one thing many ways seems like a strength to the system to me.

You are entitled to your opinion, however when you are dealing with a rules system that gives you an extremely limited number of "points" to use when designing your character, and you are looking at an easily obtainable, easily concealed, easily used, mundane item that statistically dose the exact same thing as something that cost 16% to 11% of the powers you can start with and even in the most high powered of games will still be 3-5% of your available powers there is something seriously wrong

you would never dream of forcing someone to devote 10% of there resources to obtaining a knife, or even a dozen knives. why are you saying you should have to for "claws" that are in no way more beneficial? if your arguing because there more "thematically?" appropriate, and the system is "inherently flexible" then why cant someone just have metal claws magically/technologically implanted for zero refresh?

[Deadmanwalking]

"Pack more of a wallop" is due to higher refresh costs.
-Your Story 158, emphasis mine

Yes. Two shifts, like say, +2 damage, maybe? I'm not suggesting the Stunt be better than the listed criteria here, just as good.

I want to say that I agree that there is a power discrepancy between the powers.  I disagree that Claws is vastly underpowered, and feel that either solution makes them more powerful than is intended.  I also want to note that Breath weapon is ranged and a wpn 2, but that it does not stack with any other effect, giving claws an advantage in many cases.  Plus your breath weapon is useless against a fairly large number of targets (no matter what element you pick).

Yes, because lots of things are immune to acid, or lightning. Wait, no they aren't.

I will say that a bonus to certain maneuvers would not be out of line.  Another option is to add an upgrade to them "Supernaturally Sharp\hard".  For one extra refresh you could add two points of shift (for a total of -2 refresh and +3 effect, a perfectly reasonable number in my mind) to the effect.

So...why couldn't the original just have 2 shifts of effect? That's all I'm arguing for here.

This is not true on either count. 
A) You can take this power if you want your wolf\cat\bear form to have any sort of weapon.  The reasons are cosmetic\character driven.  There is no rules reason to take them, but that does not mean there is no reason to take the power.

Yes, such characters in fact require it. Which (as previously mentioned) is one of my primary reasons for having problems with it. A sub-par stunt that nobody ever needs to take is a much smaller deal than one large numbers of people are required to have.

B)  Mundane and supernatural powers being interchangeable is not a flaw in the system.  In fact, the option to do one thing many ways seems like a strength to the system to me.

Mundane stunts and supernatural powers being interchangeable is a strength of the system. Mundane items and supernatural powers being interchangeable, while inevitable in the case of weapon powers, are not usually something to be looked for.

[Falar]

Most of the time, if you're going to take a character that gets into the scrum of the fight, you'll generally have the option of Inhuman Strength - especially for shapeshifters. Let's say you're down to choosing between Inhuman Strength or Claws.

Claws - Weapon: 1, uses Fists, unconcealable. 1 Refresh.
Inhuman Strength - Weapon: 2, Fists or Weapons. +1 whenever Might modifies a skill. +1 to Might for grapples. +3 to Might when lifting or breaking inanimate objects. You look normal. 2 Refresh.

Even playing at the lowest refresh, Claws is never really an economical choice. Double the cost and you get MORE than double the use and, hey, you can still say you have horns or whatever. It functions basically the same.

Basically, you're penalizing people for using Claws in their character concept by making them have to pay for a subpar supernatural power. Or rewarding people who think that they want claws or horns but don't want to spend the Refresh on it so they go another route. Either way, if someone makes the choice that their character concept needs to have Claws, they'll be operating below the level of someone who worked around it or doesn't have a concept that comes close to Claws.

[iago]

Claws are an edge case. They're comparing to a 1 refresh stunt, by and large. Here's what they get vs. a stunt that provides Weapon:2 in a particular situation:

- Applicable in practically all uses of Fists (the stunt has to be restricted)
- Stacking

Those are two things that you *can't* get with a stunt; you can't get something which applies all the time, and you can't stack multiple stunt effects together. One of those would be enough to make it a power-class thing. Since there are two, the bonus provided got knocked down a titch.

(There's also very little expectation that characters would take it as a solo power. It's an embellishment. If you like, look at it as an upgrade on the strength abilities.)

That said, ain't nothin' wrong with the houserules I've seen folks toss up (costing zero, or just boosting its bonus to 2). Either way you'll end up with more dangerous clawed adversaries in addition to making it make sense for your players and your table, so I figure that sort of hack is self-balancing.

[Victim]

The problem with Claws is that its closest equivalents are mundane weapons that cost no refresh.  And a knife isn't exactly uncommon or hard to conceal.  And that's just the lowest weapon value.  A Greatsword still costs no refresh but hits as a hard Claws+Inhuman Strength (granted, it's not really concealable, can be disarmed, and lacks the grappling/Might bonuses of Strength).  If we want huge damage, it's easy to stack a big mortal weapon with a strength power and hit for 5 damage at a mere -2, or 7 at -4 (magical attacks can also do tons of damage but tend to be more skill intensive and has limited ammo).  

Hmm, no other power does physical damage at better than 1 for 1.  However, Incite Emotion seems like it can get +2 attack and Weapon 4 for -3 if I'm reading it correctly.  That's actually better than 2 for 1.  Plus it's an inobvious attack, can't be noticed when not in use, goes against the mental track which is often shorter than the physical one...

So maybe Claws at +2 for -1 is okay (or +1 attack, +1 damage).  It still wouldn't be the same damage potential as the biggest weapons, but the gap is a bit narrower.

[Moriden]

I'm going to take my own advice here and take a step back, lets look at the precedents and the math. A character with inhuman strength which is incredibly likely for anyone who has claws. especially as Iago said we could think of claws as an upgrade to inhuman strength. could instead take. Off-Hand Weapon Training, Wall of Death, or Lethal Weapon. So why don't we compare these four stunts keeping the criteria you listed in mind and see what shakes loose.

I'm arbitrarily giving all of these things equal weighting.

Claws
Claws one extra physical stress inflicted, one refresh, always usable, stacks, need high concept, cant be concealed.
+1 damage 1    Stacks 1   Always usable 1    need high concept -1     cant be concealed-1 = [1]
With inhuman strength +2 damage done                                                                         [3]
 
Lethal Weapon
Lethal weapon is a flat weapon rating 2 when unarmed, and your opponent is unarmored and you need to qualify for it, one refresh , only works against some targets, stacks.

+2 damage 2    Stacks1   situationaly available -1  need other stunt -1    can be concealed 1   [1]
With inhuman strength +2 damage done                                                                           [3]

Lethal weapon is also considered underpowered, at least according to the post dedicated to discussing underpowered stunts.

weapon training
A character with Inhuman strength could certainly duel wield basterd swords if he so choose which to my understanding is a weapon three. when using "weapon training" such a character is gaining 2 extra stress of damage on all weaponry attacks for one refresh, always available and stacks.

+2 damage 2   Stacks1  Always useable1  need weapon -1  can be concealed1  [5]
With inhuman strength +2 damage done                                                      [7]

Wall of Death
When using wall of death [and there's no restriction on how often you can use this other then having targets] your base weapon damage is multiplied by the lessor of your successes to hit or available targets. again for one refresh, always available and stacks.

+N damage N    Stacks1   situationally usable-1    need weapon -1  can be concealed 1 
Base                                                                               [1-1]x3 =0   or [1-5]x3=12
With inhuman strength +2 damage done                                [1-1]x5 =0  or  [1-5]x5=20
with inhuman strength and combining duel wield                      [1-1]x5 =0  or  [1-5]x7=28/2 =14each

where x equals the number of targets available-1 times the weapon rating used.
lets assume the max number of people in range at a time will be 5 and that we are using a weapon rating 3 bastard sword.  so we will solve for the minimum and maximum amounts then.

In summation it appears that lethal blows and claws in no way stand up to duel wield or wall of death no less the two being combined. all of them appear to stack with each other and while claws is always available for use it cant be concealed and being obviously inhuman isn't exactly a good thing in the dresdenverse. lethal blows is only available if your opponent isn't wearing armor, and wall of death depends on the situation. however duel wield gives a flat 2 shifts of extra damage all the time[ especially if your designed to always have weapons on you or go the extra mile and enchant swords to teleport to your hands when needed]

My proposal would be to change claws to "Your unarmed attacks are considered to be Weapon rating one."  at -0 refresh
and lethal blows to not require your opponent to be unarmored.  at its current -1

[Deadmanwalking]

(There's also very little expectation that characters would take it as a solo power. It's an embellishment. If you like, look at it as an upgrade on the strength abilities.)

See, this is a problem. Because alot of concepts require claws, but in no way require any enhanced strength. So this screws over all the were-foxes, were-jackals, spider monsters, and other Claw-needing characters rather badly. Heck, one of the characters in my potential DFRPG game (the Changeling Fetch-spawn I've mentioned a few times) actually does have Claws sans Inhuman Strength, so it's not a 'never gonna happen' kinda thing here, it can and will come up. Heck, a character with Claws as their only power (as some sort of ki attack) is a reasonable concept...but not a viable one mechanically, since claws isn't close to worth the 3 Refresh this concept requires.

Which gets back to that whole "punishing people for their concept" thing, which is something the DFRPG mostly manages to avoid. And it's a legitimate punishment, too, since it's not situational or ever a weakness (and will thus never grant Fate Points)...it's just not as good as a 1 Refresh ability should be.



And what about the comparisons to Inhuman Strength? You've addressed comparisons to Lethal Weapon quite well, and I'm now willing to accept that Claws is likely equal to it (I missed the reduced effectiveness of stacking in Stunts)...but shouldn't it be better? I mean, Lethal Weapon stacks with Inhuman Strength, too, doesn't it? And that's the only thing Claws are basically ever going to stack with.

I'll refer again to all the benefits Inhuman Strength grants (well over 1 Refresh worth, honestly) in addition to the damage bonus (which will also still be better even if claws is improved since it applies to Weapons attacks, that's nearly double the effectiveness). Claws should really be being compared to other damage adding Powers not Mundane Stunts for play balance, shouldn't it?


And yeah, this'll make characters with claws a bit more dangerous. Precisely as much more dangerous as giving a character without claws a knife or brass knuckles (or a sword, if he's got a knife). Which is to say, a bit, but not an unreasonable amount.


Any change will also fit better thematically, IMO, it'll add in to that whole "if he got his hands on me I was dead." thing. Which, thematically, really should apply to things with claws even if they aren't superhumanly strong. I mean, the Alphas are given Inhuman Strength...but if you read the passages where Harry talks about how deadly they are it's usually the razored fangs he's talking about at least as much as the speed and strength.

[Victim]

And yeah, this'll make characters with claws a bit more dangerous. Precisely as much more dangerous as giving a character without claws a knife or brass knuckles (or a sword, if he's got a knife). Which is to say, a bit, but not an unreasonable amount.

Or as if the character with the claws just picked up a better weapon.  You don't want a Red Court Vampire to be using a crowbar or bat for extra damage instead of their natural attacks.

[Deadmanwalking]

Eh. The Red Court using swords isn't actually inappropriate.

On the other hand, on a balance note, I'm doing my own breakdowns of how many Mundane Stunts some powers are worth:

Echoes of the Beast [-1]: +1 to two skills under certain circumstances, +1 to a third OR a new Skill Trapping. 2 or 3 total.
Cloak of Shadows [-1]: +2 to Stealth for all uses in darkness. Ignore darkness penalties. 1 and a half or so. Maybe 2.
Marked By Power [-1]: +1 to all social skills with supernaturals. At least 2, maybe more like 4, since it applies to all social skills.
Inhuman Strength [-2]: +3 lifting and breaking (3 stunts right there), +1 to grappling (1 more), Might always complements (we'll call this a freebie), +2 Stress to both Fists and Weapons attacks (Call it 2 more). About 6 total.
Incite Emotion [-1]: Adds a new skill trapping (inciting emotions to Deceit), adds a +2 bonus to that use. 2 Stunts.

Claws [-1]: +1 Stress damage to Fists attacks. 1 Stunt.


So, yeah, that's a thoroughly random sampling of powers (aside from Inhuman Strength, which I'll admit to having picked for effect). What do they all have in common? Being something like twice as good as Claws (in Inhuman Strength's case, 3 times as good per Refresh). These are obviously only rough equivalents...but I think my point stands.

[luminos]

I think a lot of the supernatural powers are actually overpowered.  An unconditional +1 to all attacks that stacks is actually okay with me for a -1 refresh power.  Sure, if that is the only power your character has, then its a rip-off, and I'd ask the GM to house rule it as +0 or some such thing, but in most cases, its going to be one of many supernatural powers and the total offsetting effect of those powers makes the power very much worth it.  Of course, I'm biased towards pure mortal character concepts, which are probably the weakest in the game at the moment, so any proposed power increases that privilege supernatural character concepts over pure mortal ones even more than the default is going to make me want to oppose it.