Aren't Claws Too Weak?

[Deadmanwalking]

I think the title speaks for itself. They provide +1 Stress on unarmed attacks. That's it. As a Mundane Stunt you can get +2 with a restriction...which makes it about equal to Claws. But aren't powers supposed to be flat-out better than Mundane Stunts? Shouldn't someone who just has the Claws power (and, say, Human Form at +0) get something a bit more for the 3 Refresh they gave up?

To look at it another way, Inhuman Strength grants +2 Stress (which also applies to Weapon attacks) and at least one Refresh worth of other capabilities (+3 Lifting and Breakin, +1 to Grapples, +1 Grapple Stress). Shouldn't claws equal the Stress bonus since that's all they give, and even then only to unarmed attacks?

Right now, claws are something certain concepts (like say, a werewolf) require, and so are purchased for them, but at least to me, it feels like a chore, a wasted point of Refresh to make the concept work. That shuldn't be the case with any Stunt, much less a Power, and almost acts as a surcharge subtly discouraging those concepts (not that that'll stop people, but still).

Changing it isn't even particularly unbalancing since you can only get Claws once, so it's not gonna stack up or anything (well, it'll stack with Strength powers, but those are more expensive).

[Moriden]

Thus why in my games claws is -0

[Falar]

I was originally going to take Claws for my Weregoat as one of his first powers at Feet in the Water ... then I figured it was better to just go for Inhuman Strength. Whereas Claws will definitely be necessary at some point, they're not budgetarily smart at all.

Now, say, if they were Weapon:2, then they'd probably be worth it. Or Weapon:2 and Weapon:3 vs Unarmored Opponents ... Or Weapon:1 and they provide +2 to Fists when using them.

[Deadmanwalking]

Just making them Weapon: 2 seems the simplest and most balanced enhancement of the claws to me. Going overboard could be just as big a problem as them being underpowered.

[paul_Harkonen]

Two things to note:
First, I do not know enough about the system to feel certain about any of my opinions regarding balance issues.

Second, it seems to me that Claws add several non-combat abilities (climbing, scratching open\damaging objects, and scaring the bejesus out of mundanes) plus they open up a number of maneuvers that allow you to add a number of different Aspects to the target (most of which would be incredibly easy to Tag or Invoke).

The balance issues for FATE are difficult to identify given the amorphous nature of Aspects.  The ability to add aspects like "MAIMED"  or "BLEEDING" or things like that which easily add to the power of everyone else, as well as your own character on subsequent attacks.  Claws also allow you to Invoke certain aspects on targets, off the top of my head, you more easily tear off "Flesh Masks" and can take advantage of things like the Chlorofiend (which I would give the Aspect of "MADE OF PLANTS").

[Moriden]

in what way is takeing the current version of claws more beneficial than haveing a cats claw* on you ?



citation
http://www.ninja-weapons.com/Ninja_Items/Ninja_Tools/4280.shtml

[Deadmanwalking]

It can't be disarmed. But yeah, that's not worth a point of Refresh on it's own.

[Falar]

See, Paul, what happens if you have a non-claw type character who still has natural weapons? Like a goat. Or a stag. They've got natural weapons, which is what claws entail and they have nowhere near that kind of flexibility. In their case, Claws just is more or less a waste of a refresh and it's pretty integral to the concept. So they're basically being penalized for having a concept of what they want to play.

[Moriden]

So they're basically being penalized for having a concept of what they want to play.

I strongly agree that claws should be -0 refresh, there not concealable and there nearly if ever more beneficial then equivalent mundane items, so theirs no logical reason why you should have to pay for them, it should simply be if it makes sense then you get them, if it doesn't then you don't.

[Deadmanwalking]

Missed this. Allow me to respond:

Two things to note:
First, I do not know enough about the system to feel certain about any of my opinions regarding balance issues.

Noted.  

Second, it seems to me that Claws add several non-combat abilities (climbing, scratching open\damaging objects, and scaring the bejesus out of mundanes) plus they open up a number of maneuvers that allow you to add a number of different Aspects to the target (most of which would be incredibly easy to Tag or Invoke).

Uh...Inhuman Strength can easily do everything you've just listed. Well, maybe not climbing, but everything else. And it gets the bonuses I mention above.

The balance issues for FATE are difficult to identify given the amorphous nature of Aspects.  The ability to add aspects like "MAIMED"  or "BLEEDING" or things like that which easily add to the power of everyone else, as well as your own character on subsequent attacks.  Claws also allow you to Invoke certain aspects on targets, off the top of my head, you more easily tear off "Flesh Masks" and can take advantage of things like the Chlorofiend (which I would give the Aspect of "MADE OF PLANTS").

All Aspects are created equal, at least, if they're the same type of Aspect (peronal, scene, consequence, etc.), the precise special effects (while relevant) are not any better than another special effect, at least nt generally. Certainly not for claws.

And "Maimed" and "Bleeding" are both almost certainly consequences, and ones almost anybody can get if they're brutal enough. I can think of several ways to get them with a high Fists pure mortal, actually.

EDIT:

I strongly agree that claws should be -0 refresh, there not concealable and there nearly if ever more beneficial then equivalent mundane items, so theirs no logical reason why you should have to pay for them, it should simply be if it makes sense then you get them, if it doesn't then you don't.

Or they should be better. I'd be more inclined to jack up their damage than drop their Refresh, just because having claws strikes me as something that SHOULD be really nice and worth Refresh, but either solution would work.

[Moriden]

Or they should be better. I'd be more inclined to jack up their damage than drop their Refresh, just because having claws strikes me as something that SHOULD be really nice and worth Refresh, but either solution would work.

The reason i suggest lower the cost instead of boosting the power is if you look at most creatures that have claws, you'll find that there not particularly more affective then a knife.

[Deadmanwalking]

True, but we're talking supernatural creature's claws and fangs here, those might be somewhat deadlier. 

[Moriden]

of course. most natural claws arent as deadly as a good knife, so i already took that into acount

I put some math and ideas on how to handle those two items on my pfc thread take a look at em when you get a sec.

[paul_Harkonen]

All Aspects are created equal, at least, if they're the same type of Aspect (peronal, scene, consequence, etc.), the precise special effects (while relevant) are not any better than another special effect, at least not generally. Certainly not for claws.

And "Maimed" and "Bleeding" are both almost certainly consequences, and ones almost anybody can get if they're brutal enough. I can think of several ways to get them with a high Fists pure mortal, actually.

All Aspects generate equal effects, this does not make them all equal.  For example, the aspect of "BROKEN FINGER": I can invoke it, maybe, during any grapple, but not a whole lot else (without getting really creative).  The aspect of "BLINDED" on the other hand, I can invoke on any defense roll that I take for as long as the Aspect (or consequence) lasts.

Whether they're aspects or consequences doesn't matter much, and as a GM you're going to have to be incredibly convincing for me to allow you to inflict "BLEEDING" without having a weapon that can make someone bleed.  

The strength of this system is just how flexible and abstract it is, the weakness is just how flexible and abstract it is.

As for using Claws as an easy expression for other attributes (like horns) why don't you just make up a different power?  As is pretty specifically stated, nothing in Your Story, or Our World is a shopping list, it is not comprehensive, and it is not the end all be all.  You want a different power, make a different power, talk to your GM, and if it's reasonable you will almost certainly be allowed to take it.

Powers are not mechanics, if you want to do something cool, do it.  Instead of changing the powers that you don't think are perfect, make one that you think is.

[Moriden]

As for using Claws as an easy expression for other attributes (like horns) why don't you just make up a different power?  As is pretty specifically stated, nothing in Your Story, or Our World is a shopping list, it is not comprehensive, and it is not the end all be all.  You want a different power, make a different power, talk to your GM, and if it's reasonable you will almost certainly be allowed to take it.

Some story tellers will view any attempt to make custom powers or change power as "cheese wheasily attempts to power game" regardless of weather or not such is intended to be part of the system.

Whether they're aspects or consequences doesn't matter much, and as a GM you're going to have to be incredibly convincing for me to allow you to inflict "BLEEDING" without having a weapon that can make someone bleed. 

Do some research into martial arts. its trivially easy to make a person bleed with bare hands. not to mention far more crippling aspects such as, plucked out your eye