Some Guidelines for Thaumaturgical Shapeshifting?

[iago]

I do, however, think we need brief guidelines for Thaumaturgical shapeshifting. It's probably not gonna be available in the midst of combat without buying some other power, but it's clearly an available ability in the setting, and some basic guidelines on difficulty seem somewhat necessary.

I agree. The discussion is underway with the developers' list right now. We're looking at potentially writing a more expanded set of guidelines for posting here on the forums, but I'm also drafting up something that can fit in the available margin space on YS283, the page right after the transformation section, since it's the closest and biggest space available. This is my current draft which just barely fits:

HARRY: Billy, I’m thinking about the transforming stuff on the previous page. What does it take to transform yourself into a form with new powers? Or someone else for that matter?

BILLY: The simplest answer is that transforming a target is like killing a target, with the taken out result being that they come back in a new form with different powers (that they have to pay refresh points for). Transforming yourself is either about producing a temporary, short-term, specific spell-effect with an obvious shift cost, or it’s about acquiring new powers with spent refresh (or temporarily—see page 92).

EDIT: The simple fact of the matter is that for a regularly shapeshifting spellcaster

(click to show/hide)

like Listens to Wind

, I'd *buy shapeshifting powers*. The rationale for why those powers are there is that they come from spellcraft, but the cost of being able to do that should be reflected in refresh spent, IMO. If you want to look at it from one perspective, it's like refinement points spent on shapeshifting.

[Deadmanwalking]

HARRY: Billy, I’m thinking about the transforming stuff on the previous page. What does it take to transform yourself into a form with new powers? Or someone else for that matter?

BILLY: The simplest answer is that transforming a target is like killing a target, with the taken out result being that they come back in a new form with different powers (that they have to pay refresh points for). Transforming yourself is either about producing a temporary, short-term, specific spell-effect with an obvious shift cost, or it’s about acquiring new powers with spent refresh (or temporarily—see page 92).

That sounds reasonable. It also (potentially) makes doing it to yourself alot cheaper, since you can refuse to take Consequences... making it a mere 5 shift effect. Still nothing that can be done in  combat...but not unreasonable. Though the Fate Point cost of some forms might get hefty. Or am I wrong about how that would work?

Also, could a spellcaster accept an inability to use magic for the duration of the spell instead of burning Fate Points ala p. 92 as the price of an equal or lesser number of powers? Or at least Evocation? Having a sorcerer turn into a hawk to spy on his foes, while not easy, doesn't seem like it should require 4 Fate Points (Beast Change, Wings, Diminutive Size, Claws), 1 Fate Point and not being able to use Evocation seems like it's more reasonable.

EDIT: The simple fact of the matter is that for a regularly shapeshifting spellcaster

(click to show/hide)

like Listens to Wind

, I'd *buy shapeshifting powers*. The rationale for why those powers are there is that they come from spellcraft, but the cost of being able to do that should be reflected in refresh spent, IMO. If you want to look at it from one perspective, it's like refinement points spent on shapeshifting.

For combat shapeshifting? I couldn't agree more.

[iago]

That sounds reasonable. It also (potentially) makes doing it to yourself alot cheaper, since you can refuse to take Consequences... making it a mere 5 shift effect. Still nothing that can be done in  combat...but not unreasonable. Though the Fate Point cost of some forms might get hefty. Or am I wrong about how that would work?

If I understand what you're saying, I don't think you're wrong. But it also means you don't need THAT many fate points to do a simple skill shuffle transformation.

Also, could a spellcaster accept an inability to use magic for the duration of the spell instead of burning Fate Points ala p. 92 as the price of an equal or lesser number of powers? Or at least Evocation? Having a sorcerer turn into a hawk to spy on his foes, while not easy, doesn't seem like it should require 4 Fate Points (Beast Change, Wings, Diminutive Size, Claws), 1 Fate Point and not being able to use Evocation seems like it's more reasonable.

Yeah, this is one of those cases where I could see playing it looser for things like the "I'm a hawk and can only do hawk things" surveillance spell. There, the transformation is almost just a special effect for a remote divination, even. Which I think is at the root of why the early-draft guidelines are loose or absent.  Intent precedes system, yes, but here also intent indicates effect, and effect indicates how deeply you need to engage the system to get the result you're looking for.

I would ALSO suggest that you can eat up "tags" on temporary aspects that were created as part of the preparation of the spell in lieu of the fate points.

[Deadmanwalking]

I would ALSO suggest that you can eat up "tags" on temporary aspects that were created as part of the preparation of the spell in lieu of the fate points.

Yeah, that's probably the best way to do it. Makes turning into a Kodiak bear either a long OR very expensive process. As it should be for most Wizards.

[iago]

Yeah, that's probably the best way to do it. Makes turning into a Kodiak bear either a long OR very expensive process. As it should be for most Wizards.

Finding the hawk's nest and getting one of its feathers -- that's a scene, and a resulting single aspect that goes into the spell.

Yeah. Prep's a bitch. But it's also a story.

[Deadmanwalking]

Finding the hawk's nest and getting one of its feathers -- that's a scene, and a resulting single aspect that goes into the spell.

Yeah. Prep's a bitch. But it's also a story.

And it makes such potent magic effectively an appropriate difficulty. For example, if you need the equivalent of 4 FP to turn into a Hawk, that means you're effectively doing a Complexity 13 Spell for most purposes. Becoming a wolf with Alpha style stats (and 6 Refresh worth of powers) ups that to 17. Those both sound about right, especially when you still need to tack on duration.

Maybe you should expand on that Marginalia a little. Tacking on something about allowing Tags from spellcasting to be used in lieu of Fate Points couldn't take more than half a sentence and is something some people might not otherwise think of.

[JustinS]

Also, could a spellcaster accept an inability to use magic for the duration of the spell instead of burning Fate Points ala p. 92 as the price of an equal or lesser number of powers? Or at least Evocation? Having a sorcerer turn into a hawk to spy on his foes, while not easy, doesn't seem like it should require 4 Fate Points (Beast Change, Wings, Diminutive Size, Claws), 1 Fate Point and not being able to use Evocation seems like it's more reasonable.

For combat shapeshifting? I couldn't agree more.

I'd say that stacking in the no evocation would be effectivly adding in Hawk Form(human form)[+1] for a net -3. Adding in being a bird with a 7 foot wingspan, and you can drop diminitive size to get to -2 (please keep access to thamatergy in bird form if you have it, I want to see all the prep work done as a bird). Though really, for that kind of bird, I'd add back in inhuman speed and get you back to -4.

[iago]

Maybe you should expand on that Marginalia a little. Tacking on something about allowing Tags from spellcasting to be used in lieu of Fate Points couldn't take more than half a sentence and is something some people might not otherwise think of.

There's room for *maybe* two words. It's that tight of a fit.

EDIT: Wait! FIVE words! The parenthetical at the end now gains: "—using fate points and tags)."

[Moriden]

Okay so if you want to be someone who "self buffs" yourself the suggested way would be to take True Shape shifting [–4], and Modular Abilities [-Varies], and then i guess something like traumaturgy with a biomantic specialization and a decent focus item so that something like a complexity 14 action could be cast without preparation.


But if your doing it that way you don't actually need to have the thaumaturgy or cast spells at all since the ability's you paid for already give you the ability to shape shift. i know that trans formative magic is rare in the dresdenverse but it seems kinda like any such potential character would be getting double charged, since theoretically they should be able to do it just of of the thaumatirgy powers.

just some thoughts.

[iago]

But if your doing it that way you don't actually need to have the thaumaturgy or cast spells at all since the ability's you paid for already give you the ability to shape shift. i know that trans formative magic is rare in the dresdenverse but it seems kinda like any such potential character would be getting double charged, since theoretically they should be able to do it just of of the thaumatirgy powers.

Okay, then, play a guy without the Thaumaturgy powers, just the shapeshifting ones -- and show me how well he can cast every other thaumaturgy spell too.

[iago]

Okay, then, play a guy without the Thaumaturgy powers, just the shapeshifting ones -- and show me how well he can cast every other thaumaturgy spell too.

Sorry, that was flip -- I was on my way to something else while I was typing that. What I meant to be saying was...

Thaumaturgy comes with a LOT of flexibility. That ultimately is a lot of what its cost is about.  But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to eat some extra cost in order to get the specific think you want out of it consistently and reliably (as represented by spent refresh), nor that you shouldn't have to summon up a lot of juice (as represented by the fate points or tags) to do it as a one-off if going for a temporary power angle on things.

And from a game balance perspective, it also keeps the wizard from being the concept that steps on everyone else's toes CONSTANTLY.

[Korwin]

EDIT: The simple fact of the matter is that for a regularly shapeshifting spellcaster

(click to show/hide)

like Listens to Wind

, I'd *buy shapeshifting powers*. The rationale for why those powers are there is that they come from spellcraft, but the cost of being able to do that should be reflected in refresh spent, IMO. If you want to look at it from one perspective, it's like refinement points spent on shapeshifting.

That may be the goal, but cant be the start for an PC. Too expensive 

That said, can I have an example? Like an Self-Transformation into an Hellhound. (with the math please)

@Deadmanwalking
If you can do it, you can do it in combat too. With Potions. At least I think so 

[Moriden]

Thaumaturgy comes with a LOT of flexibility. That ultimately is a lot of what its cost is about.  But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to eat some extra cost in order to get the specific think you want out of it consistently and reliably (as represented by spent refresh), nor that you shouldn't have to summon up a lot of juice (as represented by the fate points or tags) to do it as a one-off if going for a temporary power angle on things.

quote alright I'm sure your starting to get fed up with me.

i was more getting at, that doing it this way kinda makes having Rituals: Biomancy -2 rather pointless. To shape-shift yourself you would have to either spend a bunch of fate points every time or take the shape-shifting powers. It is true that you'd have the added benefits with Biomancy of potentially being able to heal yourself and get yourself killed by shape-shifting others.

Its probably just my innate dislike of having to spend a temporary resource to fuel powers but it seems to me like if you can temporarily shape shift yourself then it should be controlled by making it harder to do, not by having to spend fate points to do it. Isn't the justification for having to spend fate points on temporary boosts on page 92 that the beings who can boost you in such a way are not likely to do it very often?  That doesn't really seem to track one to one in the Biomancers case since the limiting factors for him would be his innate power and talent.

[iago]

Rituals: Biomancy would be full of things like supercharging your muscles (an effect that gives you, say, Weapon:2 with your bare hands for a couple scenes) and so on. For people to say "biomancy is only effective if it gives me full shapeshifting for a cheaper cost than the people who are actual shapeshifters and have paid to be that" is both missing the point and angling for a way to cheat (the latter, hopefully, unintentional).

[JustinS]

I think that is the problem, figuring out how to strike the balance. Thaumatergic shapeshifting feels like it should be one of the cool but hard things to do. I know I am trying to figure out how to make it work and keep it hard enough to be worth it.

It seems like it should be harder then I take you out without your resisting, and easier then a death spell/tranform fully resisiting other person, and from a game persepctice, a more impresssive/powerful from should be a bit harder (though some of that can be handled by making the rolls and tasks to get the Lore Bonuses to be harder. Dog stuff is not as hard to find as wolf for example, pigeon is easy, bald eagle is less so).