Some Guidelines for Thaumaturgical Shapeshifting?

[Moriden]

I think part of the disconsolate is there aren't really any examples of doing things like supercharging your muscles, harden  your skin, changing the ways your eyes work etc other then by taking the shape-changing or superhuman qualities. So we all try to do the easiest thing mechanically which would be emulating the powers that are similar.

If we had some kind of chart saying what the shift costs for things like [and this is of the top of my head] + to skills,+ weapons/armor ratings, altering your movement speed, getting extra stress boxes, then we could build these spells from the ground up and there would be much less confusion.

If there are costs for these listed somewhere then please forgive me, i just haven't found them yet.

[iago]

If we had some kind of chart saying what the shift costs for things like [and this is of the top of my head] + to skills,+ weapons/armor ratings, altering your movement speed, getting extra stress boxes, then we could build these spells from the ground up and there would be much less confusion.

Those are already pretty well laid out in the various spell effects found in the chapter, though. It's already clear that a block gets strength 1 for 1, armor gets a point on a 1 for 2, weapon gets a point on 1 for 1, etc; and from the rest of the book since when you take a sprint action you can move 1 zone (or overcome a border of 1) for 1 shift, that rounds out the movement stuff.  Extra stress boxes would mainly manifest the way they manifest from increasing your Endurance (or Presence or Conviction) skill, I would think, though that's not normally something I'd bring into spells at all (I'd just go for the armor or block thing).

... so what are you looking for beyond that?

[Moriden]

... so what are you looking for beyond that?

Just bonuses to skill rolls i think, for example Inhuman strength gives you a +2 to might. Beast senses gives a +1 to sense rolls when appropriate.

I don't -think- that that is handled by a maneuver, block, attack, or weapons rating.

[iago]

Just bonuses to skill rolls i think, for example Inhuman strength gives you a +2 to might. Beast senses gives a +1 to sense rolls when appropriate.

I don't -think- that that is handled by a maneuver, block, attack, or weapons rating.

Right, that's something of a difference between things you pay refresh for (stunts, powers) and things which you *simulate*.

There's no simulation of bonuses (beyond what an Armor or a Weapon rating amounts to). Instead, you simulate the end effect: the effective rating of the rolled skill result. Because spells determine what the effect is, and then make it happen, rather than saying "I have an ability rating of Great, now let's roll to see what the level of the effect is".

So if you want to, say, simulate Inhuman Strength for lifting a heavy object (+2 to Might), really what you're looking to simulate is, say, a Fantastic (+6) result on a Might roll: i.e., spell power of 6.

[Korwin]

How much shifts would those powers be worth?

• Aquatic
• Claws
• Diminutive Size
• Echoes of the Beast
• Hulking Size
• Pack Instincts
• Spider Walk
• Wings
• Supernatural Sense
• Beast Change
• Demonic Co-Pilot
• Gaseous Form
• Mimic Form
• Speed
• Strength
• Toughness
• Recovery
• Physical Immunity

Some I can guess (Claws, Thoughness), most I have no idea... (Aquatic? Fly?)

[Korwin]

There's no simulation of bonuses (beyond what an Armor or a Weapon rating amounts to). Instead, you simulate the end effect: the effective rating of the rolled skill result. Because spells determine what the effect is, and then make it happen, rather than saying "I have an ability rating of Great, now let's roll to see what the level of the effect is".

So if you want to, say, simulate Inhuman Strength for lifting a heavy object (+2 to Might), really what you're looking to simulate is, say, a Fantastic (+6) result on a Might roll: i.e., spell power of 6.

Hmm, I need much more System Mastery....

[Moriden]

Iago
Okay that works, its just very different from any system Ive ever used before. thank you for taking the time to walk me through it.



Korwin
Take a look at this thread

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16887.0.html

{found it when my fiance insisted that i send her a link to every thread on this topic on the boards] and LCDarkwood's response. I think between that precedent and Iagos block method above we can do the rest of the math ourselves. other then maybe healing stuff...

[iago]

How much shifts would those powers be worth?

You're, again, looking at a powers list, not a list of effects. How much does each effect amount to in terms of the *result* it produces? That's the number of shifts. Lots of this stuff falls under the logic of simple actions.

Let's talk gaseous form: what are you using it for?

From one perspective, we're just talking Harry's escape potion -- something that allowed him to move a couple zones and through normally very difficult or impossible to pass barriers.  In that case it's a movement effect with a certain number of shifts in value.  (By its nature, maybe a little arbitrary. Four shifts of "sprint" that operate under special circumstances -- passing through small openings as if they're low or no barrier, because remember, magic makes impossible things possible -- might do the trick. Maybe a little more. Maybe a little less. What's your GM say?)

Are we talking about using it to make it harder to harm you, with weapons passing through you? Well, maybe that's a block or an armor effect.

And so on.

You want all of them, all together, well then you're probably talking about a much higher complexity spell.

You're talking about wanting to do it *a lot*, at the drop of a hat, without having to cast a spell each time? ... You're probably talking about spending some refresh on that bad boy, because it's a *power*.

[Korwin]

Maybe a little more. Maybe a little less. What's your GM say?

Since I fear I am the GM... At the Moment: "No clue."

Take a look at this thread {found it when my fiance insisted that i send her a link to every thread on this topic on the boards] and LCDarkwood's response. I think between that precedent and Iagos block method above we can do the rest of the math ourselves. other then maybe healing stuff...

Yeah, I need definitly a cheat-sheet.
For what effects are in the powers and how much are those effects worth in shifts.

I'll reread both threads tomorrow. Hope my head is clearer by then.

[Biff Dyskolos]

How much shifts would those powers be worth?

As a rule of thumb, I would say a power costs 2 shifts per refresh cost. So, Aquatic 2 shifts, Hulking Size 4 shifts, Physical Immunity 16 shifts. Also, your Thaumaturgical shapeshifting seems to be trying to duplicate the Modular Abilities power (which has a 2 refresh surcharge) to I would also start with a base 4 shift complexity and then add the cost of the other stuff onto that.

[Wyrdrune]

As a rule of thumb, I would say a power costs 2 shifts per refresh cost. So, Aquatic 2 shifts, Hulking Size 4 shifts, Physical Immunity 16 shifts. Also, your Thaumaturgical shapeshifting seems to be trying to duplicate the Modular Abilities power (which has a 2 refresh surcharge) to I would also start with a base 4 shift complexity and then add the cost of the other stuff onto that.

hmmm... in addition that you have to "kill" the person you want to transform, I like that kind of ruling it's easy to remember and could be done on the fly at the gaming table without much discussion.

and for a real regular (combat) shapeshifting wizard - should be bought with refresh. mine just wants to cheat on the public transport system by flying over the city as a hawk or falcon.

[Korwin]

As a rule of thumb, I would say a power costs 2 shifts per refresh cost. So, Aquatic 2 shifts, Hulking Size 4 shifts, Physical Immunity 16 shifts. Also, your Thaumaturgical shapeshifting seems to be trying to duplicate the Modular Abilities power (which has a 2 refresh surcharge) to I would also start with a base 4 shift complexity and then add the cost of the other stuff onto that.

I'll propose an Transformation-System based on Refresh (because I find it simpler and faster).
As basis I'll take the 2 shifts per refresh cost from biff_dyskolos.


When you (Self-)Transform into another thing you loose all your Powers and Stunts.
Unless you buy them back into the Ritual.

The basic difficulty for transforming is based on the True Shapeshift Power (-4 Refresh = 8 Shifts)
(Reason, while one Ritual can only change you into one form, you can have multiple Rituals. Thats True Shapeshift.)

Since you may want to end the spell before sunrise, we add another shift.

So the basic Self-Transforming spell is an Complexity Ritual 9.

So lets say our Wizards want to transform into an Wolf. With the Lvl. 9 Ritual he can take the form off an Wolf, but he is unfamiliar with the body.
He incorporates another Power into the Ritual: Beast Change for the Skill Shuffle (Demonic Co-Pilot would work too?).
Thats another Refresh (Total of 5) or 2 Shifts of Power. = Complexity of 11

After an Encounter with an Hellhound our Wizards want to change into one.
A Hellhound is an -7 Refresh creature with the -4 from True Shapechange that would be -11. To much for our Submerged Wizard (10 Refresh Total, max. -9 Refresh)
He researches further and cuts the Pack Instinct out and the Stunt Unflappable (Presence), that would bring the Refresh to -9, but then he realises he needs still the Beast Change Power...
He cuts the other Stunt since he overlaps a little with Echoes of the Beast.
Complexity of the Ritual (9*2)+1 = 19

Later in the Campaign after the Wizard got 7 new Refreshes he bought True ShapeChange (-4) and the Modular Abilities (-3).
So he can Shapechange into an Wolf on the fly (with all his Powers intact), but anything more complicated (like an bird) he needs still to cast an Ritual.

He could change into an Bird with allmost all his Powers intact with an Ritual.
Example:
-3 Evocation
-3 Thaumaturgy
-1 Wizards Sight
-2 Refinement
-1 Diminuitive Size
-1 Wings
-1 Beast Change
-4 True Shapechange
-----------------------
-16

He could'nt use his True Shapechange, because this is the Ritual Version. He would need to end the spell first.
The Complexity of the Ritual would be (16*2)+1 = 33

With two more Refresh spent on Modular Abilities he wouldn't need the Ritual (And it would be much faster).


IMHO with this you could play an Junior Wizards who grows into an Powerfull Shapechanger.
It's flexible, but you are at least 4 Refresh points behind the Specialist.


I like it so far... Opinions?

You could allow the Wizard to go over his refresh, with the temporary Power rule on page 92 YS.
Not shure about that...

[luminos]

Not bad, not bad at all.  I think that gives a reasonable idea of how to do it.

[Saedar]

I really like that optional system. It keeps the Wizard bound by refresh limits but allows them to have a historically common focus. Huzzah!

[void]

Okay, I think I see what's going wrong here.

In most systems, self-buffs are discrete from the things you actually do with them. What Fred's trying to tell us is that in DFRPG, you don't use magic to do something so that you can do something..

The magic is used to achieve the END RESULT. What you're trying to do in the first place.

In D&D or White Wolf's Storyteller system, you use a spell to give yourself a modifier (which stacks with other modifiers) on a roll that's already balanced for a particular circumstance.

Here in Fate land, we don't roll like that. Remember, we generally eschew modifiers anyway; it's either part of the character (character aspect or power), or it's part of the story (scene aspect) or we just don't care.

To that end, when you apply magic, you're applying it not to get an intermediary benefit which might help you with another skill roll..

... you're just trying to do the thing you really want, and your success in the magic DIRECTLY TRANSLATES to success in the final objective.


The way I'd approach most of these things is go ahead and use normal thaumaturgy, including the casting time requirements, and just treat the prep time as quasi-flashback or reference to something they spent time doing earlier, within reason.

If the effects are relevant over multiple exchanges, they only get to burn their consequences in the first exchange (but they don't have to use all of the shifts from those consequences then), but they roll as normal each exchange.

(Author's note: These are the ravings of someone who hasn't seen the PDF in well over a week, and is currently enjoying percocet and chocolate pudding)