A few spell casting questions

[Stormraven]

@luminos i do understand that stress =/= damage, but it can..in one game i played i saw our magick user go down because he casted 3 spells (granted, one of them he powered up). my concern comes more as: 1 spell stress 1 = 1 stress 2 spells at stress 1 = 3 stress, etc.

Okay, I'm new here, but I had to stick my two cents in.  Where do you get 2 spells at stress 1 = 3 stress?  As I understand the stress track, your first spell at stress 1 would fill your first stress box, if it weren't already.  Your second, since your first is filled, would roll up to your stress 2 box - not your stress 3 box.

You would only roll up to your stress 3 box if your stress 2 box was already filled.

[Deadmanwalking]

Stormraven: You are entirely correct.

However, I think what BlackDog42 was aiming at was that filling up your first two Stress boxes is the same result as taking a 1 Stress Hit and then a 2 Stress hit. I don't really agree that that's a problem per se, but I think that's what he was saying.

[Stormraven]

I kind of get that, but it's exactly the same situation as taking a 1 stress hit, then another 1 stress hit.  And wrt his example, I'd like to see what spells he cast if he went down just to spell-casting.  Either he did spells so powerful that he maxed out both stress and consequence boxes, or he just decided to get taken out when his stress boxes filled.

[Fedifensor]

and really it fits pretty well. Harry rarely evocates more than 3-4 times in a fight so that combined with his enchanted items seems pretty fitting

Actually, there are several fights in the books where Harry casts more than 3-4 times.  Some handwave it by saying the spells you cast are just the ones that matter, and there are other spells thrown that are just flavor.

I'd like to see a few more spells thrown, so the house rule I'm looking at is that you can drop the result of the Discipline roll by three to negate the initial point of stress.  This allows a very skilled caster to cast less powerful spells without stress.

[Baron Hazard]

several... several... so your talking several in 12 books? that would be rarely. Which is what I said. and most of the time that can be handled using the consequence system. that being said, the evocation spin rule tends to be the one most preferred. However be careful with your version of the spin rule.

Discipline 5, Conviction 5 (pretty common for a submerged Magic User... and that's just Starting level) +1 to Fire Control. Focus Items: Offensive Fire Control bonus of +2 and Offensive Fire Power bonus of +1. Total control 8, total power 6.

weapon:6 Evocation effect cost 1 mental stress. it also only requires that the person roll a +1 in order to control that scary-ass fuego for free.

if you intend to use a spin rule, i'd suggest DMW's suggestion and limit it to the evocator power or control bonus.

[Deadmanwalking]

Actually, there are several fights in the books where Harry casts more than 3-4 times.  Some handwave it by saying the spells you cast are just the ones that matter, and there are other spells thrown that are just flavor.

So...how many of those don't involve Sponsored Magic. Because Sponsored Magic explicitly offers a way around the limit (gaining Sponsor Debt)...and is pretty much involved in every big fight from Dead Beat onward.

[Tush Hog]

Another question: if one of your rote spells is a block, maneuver or counter spell is there a reason to make a roll?

I suppose if you can make the maneuver sticky with your attack roll? Not sure if that is how it works though.

[CMEast]

The roll is for both targeting and control. If you're guaranteed to control the spell and it doesn't have a target then there is no need to roll. If you try to target an opponent in any way then you have to roll on discipline to target.

For spells that target an area and affect your opponents... I guess it's your choice. That's how I'd rule it anyway. For instance zone wide hailstones (either as an attack or a manoeuvre) could just be the strength of the rote, or if you rolled that would just be you trying to aim the hailstones at specific targets. There is a chance that you roll higher or a chance that you roll lower.

As to rote manoeuvres, I'd ay that you need to include an extra shift to the spell if you plan for it to be a sticky aspect.

[Fedifensor]

So...how many of those don't involve Sponsored Magic. Because Sponsored Magic explicitly offers a way around the limit (gaining Sponsor Debt)...and is pretty much involved in every big fight from Dead Beat onward.

So, let's start with Summer Knight (it's fresh in my mind), with the big battle in the sky.  I'm using the paperback, in case it matters for page references.  Starting in Chapter 31, and extending into Chapter 32:
* Pg 342 - Curtain of blazing scarlet energy (to stop bees)
* Pg 342 - Lance of crimson-white energy (used against a giant bee)
* Pg 345 - Smiting the ground to emit a rumbling thunder (to frighten the faerie mounts)
* Pg 346 - Horizontal shield (against charging horses)
* Pg 348 - Bolt of lightning (against Lloyd Slate)
* Pg 349 - Lash of fire (at Talos)
At least three of those spells (shield versus the bees, shield against the horses, and the bolt of lightning) were pushed beyond Harry's normal limits.  The shields covered large areas, and the bolt of lightning dropped Slate and threw everyone else to the ground...well, except Talos.

A better example is Dead Beat.  Both Luccio and Morgan unleash a pair of spells in the first few seconds that Harry sees them, and the combat continues with the following - "More of them materialized out of the rain and the night, but Luccio and the Wardens kept moving steadily forward, burning and crushing and slicing and dicing their way across the street, furiously determined to get the children clear."

I find it very, very hard to believe that Luccio and Morgan only cast a total of four spells each in that scene, when they were halfway to that limit in the first few seconds that Harry sees them (and they were fighting well before Harry arrived).  Harry also uses several spells in that fight, and doesn't call on his sponsored magic (Hellfire) until the final confrontation with Cowl (pg 382).

Those are the two books I have at hand.  Need more examples?

[Stormraven]

My take on those?  First, you're not seeing Harry Dresden: The starting character, and you're certainly not seeing Morgan or Lucca as starting characters.  I'd expect that even by Summer Knight, Harry's Conviction is high enough to give him two additional minor consequences, and I wouldn't be surprised to see both Morgan and Lucca at 3 or even four.

Add in that their Conviction scores - not including any focus items - are going to be likely +6, I can imagine them tossing spells around.  And maybe, most of those spells were area spells that just looked like three or four spells at a time?

[Morgan]

Well all of the Wizards you are giving examples for have high Convictions giving them extra Consequences to call on, so perhaps they were taking a few of them to offset the cost of their spells.

Also you might consider what constitutes a scene. One of the neat things that I love about FATE is that Stress isn't a hit point or damage mechanic, it's actually a pacing mechanic. When Harry or any other character in the books fight against impossible odds and after they have taken out a bunch of guys, are all out of juice and still surrounded by enemies, it's time for a new scene even though it is the same battle. Harry gets a second wind, he digs deep and even though he's hurt, broken, and bleeding he pours on the magic and the bad guys start burning. Thinking of Stress and the times to get rid of those checked boxes as chapter, act, or commercial breaks, or even that dramatic second wind before the shit goes down instead of traditional scenes can really make the Dresden Files game sing.

Lets take your Summer Knight examples, I don't have the book with me and it's been a few years since I read it so sorry if this isn't how it goes but I'll use my version of the action of the spells you described to give my example. So those first four spells sound like they were in one scene and then the next two were in a brand new scene of the battle where Harry gets to drop all the stress he took and start fresh, though maybe with a consequence or two because of the previous scene's spells power levels.

Those first four spells dealt with minions and they were maneuvers, blocks, and attacks. They were cool, they were powerful, and they show that Harry isn't a chump and can walk all over a bunch of dangerous things from the Summer Court. Which is great, but then the chapter probably ended and he then had to deal with the heavy hitters of Summer, Talos, Slate, etc. so it is a brand new scene, and he erases all that stress he just took powering his magic spells that got him to the heavies.

Now Harry confronts Slate and Talos, he whips out the major mojo and takes a bunch of Stress and probably some new consequences to do it, he puts down Slate and the rest probably with a block and then smites Talos with fire since he was the only one powerful enough to break through it. Now he's spent and facing off against the Summer Lady and he is all out of Stress and Bubblegum.

(click to show/hide)

But luckily he is a Wizard and he plans ahead, and as he is unleashing his Contacting Attack on Aurora he tags all those free Aspects he maneuvered onto the game in earlier scenes with a few Resource rolls for "Trip to the Hardware Store", and "I Have Pizza Express on Speed Dial" and the Lore roll that got him "Pixies Will Do Anything For Pizza", he then hits Aurora with his mighty army of box cutter wielding pixies and does enough stress to take her out, for he is truly the all powerful Za Lord!

Or at least that's how I see it playing out.

Also keep in mind Fate Points to make powerful spells even more powerful, Harry had been beat up all through Summer Knight and as usual he had also taken a bunch of compels leaving him with a lot of Fate Points for that climactic battle. Since Evocation attacks use the targeting roll to hit and any extra shifts translate to damage, well with a lot of Fate Points you can invoke a lot of aspects and those +2 bonuses start to add up quick when it comes to damage, even if the actual Evocation Attack is only a low Weapon damage.

[Deadmanwalking]

So...6 spells. When he has two Mild Consequences to pay for that sort of thing? That's...not a very compelling argument. And effecting a Zone is only 2 Shifts. Maybe he went two and three shifts above normal and got himself 3 and 4 stress hits. As long as he had the FP to make the Control rolls this should work fine.

All this leaves aside the brief tete a tete in the middle there, which can easily be seen as a break for social combat (which Harry loses, BTW), which would Refresh his Stress entirely. That would be right between the first three and the last three. 

As for Dead Beat...I got the impression they were using a relatively small number of Zone effecting spells, killing one full Zone of zombies at a time. That can be described a variety of ways. Also, cutting was involved, which wouldn't make any sense at all if you can keep blasting all day long.

And again, breaks, even brief ones, allow full Stress recovery.

[GruffAndTumble]

So, Harry gets into fights that involve more than four spells almost once a year? What exactly is the problem with assuming he blows consequences for such clearly exceptional and rare situations?

[Walker_Blade]

This was my bigest problem with the RPG system too, when I first read it, so I've developed a few ways around it, some more house rule-sy than others.

1)  Take the breath weapon power and replace the weapons roll with a discipline roll, and you have a combat spell that you can use at will for weapon 2 attacks.

2) Sponsored Magic.  Pretty handy.

3) Use Enchanted items.  A dedicated enchanter with a good crafting foci can get pretty big effects with a good number of uses each session with no stress at all.

and 4)  the house rule I've been using is that if the power is half your conviction or less then it doesn't cost a stress, so somebody with conviction 4 could throw around 2 shift evocations with no problem.

[Fedifensor]

Addressing each response in turn:

My take on those?  First, you're not seeing Harry Dresden: The starting character, and you're certainly not seeing Morgan or Lucca as starting characters.  I'd expect that even by Summer Knight, Harry's Conviction is high enough to give him two additional minor consequences, and I wouldn't be surprised to see both Morgan and Lucca at 3 or even four.

You have a far more generous view of Harry's advancement than I do.  I don't see the campaign raising the skill cap up to Fantastic (+6) that early in the series, particularly after reading "Harry's Power Ups" on OW 137.


Well all of the Wizards you are giving examples for have high Convictions giving them extra Consequences to call on, so perhaps they were taking a few of them to offset the cost of their spells.

Perhaps you can tell me what consequences Harry took in that scene...


Lets take your Summer Knight examples, I don't have the book with me and it's been a few years since I read it so sorry if this isn't how it goes but I'll use my version of the action of the spells you described to give my example. So those first four spells sound like they were in one scene and then the next two were in a brand new scene of the battle where Harry gets to drop all the stress he took and start fresh, though maybe with a consequence or two because of the previous scene's spells power levels.

(and)

All this leaves aside the brief tete a tete in the middle there, which can easily be seen as a break for social combat (which Harry loses, BTW), which would Refresh his Stress entirely. That would be right between the first three and the last three.

While recovering Stress is dependent on the GM, I'm pretty doubtful that 30 seconds of conversation qualifies as a full refresh.  If you go that route, the fight at Wal-Mart in Summer Knight can easily be separated into five different scenes, which seems excessive.  I think this is a case of people trying to fit the situations in the rules to the books, rather than the other way around. 


So, Harry gets into fights that involve more than four spells almost once a year? What exactly is the problem with assuming he blows consequences for such clearly exceptional and rare situations?

Because it is no different than any of our campaigns.  Harry has adventures, with downtime between adventures.  When you start adding in all the short stories, and the things Harry does behind the scenes that we don't see, he's about as active as the characters in many ongoing campaigns.