Some Thaumaturgical Questions

[Biff Dyskolos]

Binding
Binding is a full conflict.
We need (+4 for lucky dice, +4 for stress boxes, +20 for all conditions [inkluding extreme condition], +5 to extend the duration of afternoon to a month) a +33 complexity ritual.

I think +4 for stress boxes is wrong. If the target has for stress boxes you need +10 (4+3+2+1) shifts to fill up that stress track.

The +20 for all [consequences] is correct but then you also need 1 extra shift to take them out.

See the description of Victor Sells’ Heart-Exploding Spell on YS:301

[Korwin]

That was actually one of my questions.
Why do I need to fill up all of the stress boxes?
As I see it, I only need to go over the stress box.

If someone shoots you for 5 damage, you have no more consequences to take and have (theoretically) no stress boxes (of 4) filled you are still taken out...

[iago]

I think +4 for stress boxes is wrong. If the target has for stress boxes you need +10 (4+3+2+1) shifts to fill up that stress track.

These aren't four separate hits, Biff. This is a single strike that needs to generate a total amount of stress that exceeds the length of the stress track even after consequences, protection, thresholds, and other considerations are factored in, thus forcing a taken out result. In other words, if after all that stuff is subtracted and you still have an amount of stress greater than the highest numbered box on the stress track, the target has to be taken out -- there's no other option. It never even lands on the stress track.

[Biff Dyskolos]

These aren't four separate hits...

I was not suggesting that there were multiple hits involved. But unless I am reading things wrong the spell is "equivalent to winning a conflict in one roll." And the only example of this (I think) is Victor's Heart-Exploding spell which calculates stress baxes as I suggested.

Create Lasting Changes in People and Things (YS:263)

"Inflicting a permanent, transformative change on someone is perhaps the most complicated spell of this type. Essentially, it is equivalent to winning a conflict in one roll."
Binding (YS:273)

"...this is considered a fully transformative effect and therefore requires enough shifts to take out the demon as if it were a full conflict."
Victor Sells’ Heart-Exploding Spell

"... a 32-stress attack does the trick—an extreme, severe, moderate, and mild consequence for a total of 20 shifts, plus 10 shifts to fill up a strong physical stress track (4+3+2+1) plus two more shifts for good measure to ensure a 'taken out' result."

[iago]

Huh. Time for Lenny again.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the general target number may still be right. We're only talking about a difference of 5 shifts here -- 5 being one higher than the highest box on a 4-length stress track.  But if the spell lost the 4+3+2+1 rationale, you're still looking at the potential of the target being warded, having some sort of supernaturally extended stress track, or other things, so I still think something that aims in the mid-30s "just to be sure" has merit. But I've lit up the bat-signal.

[Ard3]

Note that Victor had (like spell discription says) "too much power and too little sense".

Maybe he wasn't really sure how much power was needed so he just went for overkill.

[Biff Dyskolos]

Note that Victor had (like spell discription says) "too much power and too little sense".

Maybe he wasn't really sure how much power was needed so he just went for overkill.

That may be so but when referring to the example in the rule book the real question is, was the person who wrote the example sure how much power was needed?

[iago]

That may be so but when referring to the example in the rule book the real question is, was the person who wrote the example sure how much power was needed?

Three people wrote it in aggregate, and at least two editors besides, so a little confusion may always creep in. This is why I'm looking to get Lenny's attention on this so I can confirm the 4+3+2+1 intent. *My* intent is more like the "make sure it's still at least 5 so it'll exceed the last box of the stress track on a single hit after it's all said and done" but I wasn't the authoritative system architect on this chapter.

[Biff Dyskolos]

... you're still looking at the potential of the target being warded, having some sort of supernaturally extended stress track, or other things, so I still think something that aims in the mid-30s "just to be sure" has merit.

The "just to be sure" factor is a bit hard to quantify. In addition to wards and thresholds, high endurance and stunts can add addition minor consequences which need to be overcome. Creatures with endurance beyond superb may have additional stress boxes too. It's hard to see how a character determines how much research (complexity), and power is required for a spell when the player can't even calculate these things.

Perhaps the Dark Lenny will come and save us from the ambiguity!

[iago]

I've conferred with Lenny and with Clark. The Victor example is wrong -- it's based on an earlier version of a spell that was shown in the text before the example spells, but which since was deleted or revised (we're not sure which without a lot of research).

Victor's spell should break down as follows:

Assume the target has Superb Endurance (human maximum, more or less), and has rolled the best possible on its defense (+4) but without bringing any aspects to boost it beyond that. That's 9 shifts to overcome right there.

This means the target also has a stress track of length 4, two mild consequence slots (due to the extra one that comes with Superb Endurance), one moderate, one severe, and may choose to use its extreme slot as well. 

Natural thresholds won't matter like they might with a targeted evocation or whatnot because the spell likely uses a component that opens a direct conduit to the target (fresh blood or hair; a true name). No defensive benefit there.

It's possible that the target could be magically warded specifically against this sort of thing, but except for Harry, Victor would have no expectation of a warded target, so that doesn't enter into things (and it's possible that the interpretation of magic instead points at the direct conduit getting around that sort of thing too; might depend on what kind of warding magic is brought to bear).

There's also no expectation that the target has some sort of armor or other defense that might apply in the way of supernatural Toughness powers.

The attack stress the spell deals in a single stroke has to beat the best defense (9), all of the consequence slots (2+2+4+6+8 = 22), and then end up with a stress amount that will land somewhere higher than the highest possible box, forcing a taken out result (5, when dealing with a stress track 4 boxes long). 9 + 22 + 5 = 36.

So that's where I'd set the Sure Thing complexity... for a mortal target with no supernatural defensive juju going its way.

I'll double-check with the team to make sure I've summarized this correctly. If I haven't, I'll post another correction. If I have, I'll get it into the book as best as I can.

[iago]

Current draft correction of Victor's spell:

Type: Thaumaturgy, necromancy

Complexity: 36 (based on conflict)

Opposed By: Target’s Endurance, but it hardly matters—there’s not much he can do to come up with that many shifts of power to oppose it.

Effect: The target dies instantly as his heart explodes from his chest, assuming that a 36-stress attack does the trick—an extreme, severe, moderate, and mild consequence for a total of 20 shifts, plus 9 shifts to overcome a best possible Endurance and a +4 roll, plus two more shifts if the target has an extra mild consequence, plus 5 shifts to ensure a “taken out” result due to a hit that lands beyond the end of a stress track of length 4.

Variations: There are all kinds of terrible things you could do with this—inflict more consequences on victims to crank up the power of the spell, cast it on multiple people simultaneously, aim for a complexity in the 40s to make sure it overcomes magical defenses…

Notes: Sells needed to do some significant preparation to cast this. He took an extreme consequence (Power Mad) for 8 shifts, took a severe consequence (Bargain With a Demon) for 6 shifts, took a moderate consequence (Trapped by the Storm) for 4 shifts, inflicted a severe consequence (Emotional Trauma) on his wife and the Beckitts for 12 more shifts, killed a rabbit with a spoon (+2 shifts for the component), and got the rest from other component sources.  Nasty business.

[Archmage_Cowl]

Thanks for clearing that up. I have a character who wants to try something similar to that in the game and having the idea more understandable is really helpful

[Korwin]

Got an new Question:
The Complexities of Binding Rituals are fairly high. But...

Can you break one Binding Ritual up into more smaller ones?
Then your Ritual needs only to beat the Defending skill without fail.
Repeat until the summoned Creature doesnt want to take any more consequences...

Is there a reason you cant do that?

[iago]

Got an new Question:
The Complexities of Binding Rituals are fairly high. But...

Can you break one Binding Ritual up into more smaller ones?
Then your Ritual needs only to beat the Defending skill without fail.
Repeat until the summoned Creature doesnt want to take any more consequences...

Is there a reason you cant do that?

How patient do you think the creature will be in between rituals? There's not zero time passing between 'em. Do you think it'll just stand there and wait?

[Deadmanwalking]

How patient do you think the creature will be in between rituals? There's not zero time passing between 'em. Do you think it'll just stand there and wait?

If you have it already summoned and trapped in a circle? Sure it will. What else can it do?