Author Topic: Unrealism In Books  (Read 13096 times)

Offline Velkyn_Faer

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Unrealism In Books
« on: January 25, 2007, 12:37:25 AM »
There is a point to this, so bear with me.

Ever since I first started seeing things like this, I have hated them, and considered certain styles of writing to be totally unrealistic because of certain traits in most of the books.

1. Cat/fox/monkey/cow/anything else -demons. Uh-uh. I don't see why so many people were/are fascinated with a dude that has a tail growing out of his rear. While some people will certainly think differently, I don't see the huge deal about it. Why cross a human with a fox, what's the point?

2. Insanely big weapons. Why do people think swords that are taller than them are cool? And, how come almost all the people I talk to about this are willing to defend it vehemently, saying it's just really big, and we could use them in real life if we had them?

There are more, but I'm pressed for time, so I'll leave it at that for now.

My question to you is, do you use these items/characters in your stories? And, please try to persuade me with better reasons than 'it is cool'. I'd love to be persuaded, really. I just don't see the point behind it all.

(Yes, I do realize the whole 'magic' thing is also unrealistic to some people, but the two above styles just really get to me.)

Velkyn


Offline Belial

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 01:21:25 AM »
While I use neither as a general rule, I can defend one of them (that being the demons).

The point behind crossing a human with a fox is that it will be associated with a human, it can also be disturbing. If you have a cat demon, that's fine and dandy, but if you have a Humanish fox demon, first the reader has to deal with the fact that the thing is humanish, but that it is also an aberration. Think about this, the U.S. has laws against the making of Chimeras (crossing humans with other species and such), because with all the cloning technology, we're coming closer to being able to do it, and it scares the shit out of us. Would you want to consort with a fox-man? It pushes the reader off balance, and whether they conciously realize it or not, it's going to disturb them.

As for the big swords; that's just people compensating for things. In real life you'll never find a sword that weighs more than a few pounds (usually 3-5... I've heard of some massive ones being ten pounds, but that's enormous). Whoever tells you that we could use them, kick em in the crotch, cause we couldn't. We might be able to get in one swing, maybe two. The recovery time would be long, and we'd be cut up by people who weren't afraid they were too small down there.

Offline Wolfeyes

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 03:32:17 AM »
1) To be truthful, if it fits the story setting it might fit. However, if the author is just throwing in random cross breeds of animals and then deeming them "demons". Being truthful it reminds me of this picture I saw from the Naruto Fillers of a guy from episode one crossed with a tiger (thus "Tiger Mizuki") and not only does it looks ridiculous but it makes little sense. Now, for the "cross a human with a fox" if it makes sense like if like Belial suggested, and it was a chimera caused from something then I think it can be more acceptable. Now if it were like "Tiger Mizuki" I'd be shaking my head and thinking something around the lines of "What the hell?"

2) On the subject of "big swords" I think a lot of it comes from the simple fact "it looks cool!" and appears in things like anime/manga like Bleach. I mean, there is nothing wrong with big swords IF it's practical to a degree and makes sense. Example, a six foot-five guy like Harry+sword bigger than him=reeeeallly impractical in a fight. Depending on what you consider insanely big I may have used the second one. I actually have a guy (he's about 6-foot 2ish) in my story weilding a nodachi that's about five foot long (impracticle?)  but in my eyes it just fits the character. Because a) he's showy and flashy b) to begin with, he isn't the guy that relies completely on the sword. A lot of it is arguable for show. He mainly ends up using using his body to attack while people are worried about the sword and then uses the sword to finish things. and c) he's got the strength/skill to back up using it d) it's what he's trained himself to use since it was the only thing around when he started e) even though he's been told arguable that a naginata or a nagamaki is more efficiant since Draven's a stubborn guy (and an idiot) he refuses to be less than skilled with his chosen weapon.

Feel free to grill me if you don't like my reasons for using that sword for my character. I actually don't mind criticism but these are simply some of the things that I think contribute to why Draven uses his sword.

Offline Belial

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 03:54:49 AM »
The reasons seem to fit pretty well, and besides that it's an actual sword which people can use (although it's a bit big for my tastes, personally.)

I don't have problems with big swords, as long as they're reasonable. The thing about the Nodachi is that although it's long, it's also pretty slim, it's made for cutting not crushing. So it can be long, and still not weigh too much. A Nodachi is usually around 5 feet long I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). A western sword of comparable length is the Claymore, it probably weighs a good deal more though. It wouldn't matter if a claymore is sharp or not, it's going to hurt.

So, I guess I can stomach swords five feet long, maybe up to six (depending on who's using it). My problem comes when a sword would be fifteen to twenty pounds (or more) and be too massive to use properly. People seem to think that's cool, and I suppose if you don't know the mechanics it could be. But I've always preferred more accurate fighting.

Offline WonderandAwe

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 03:34:14 PM »
It really depends on the medium.  For example in anime and video games, I am pretty forgiving if it looks cool.  In those mediums, plot usually takes second place when compared to the look and feel.  For a live action movie or a novel, that sword should be reasonable length for the creature holding it. 

The Half issue.  I am sort of bias agaisnt such stories.  Hypocritical of me considering that most of my early fan fic work was Half-*blank*.  I think it is because there are so many of them and most of them go into either sugarly anime mode or cardboard cut out mode. 

There are good stories out there.  Barb and JC Hendee's Noble Dead series is damn good.  And that has a Half Vampire AND a Half-Elf for main characters.  I put off reading it because I though the concept was kind of hokey. 

Offline Abstruse

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 04:21:52 PM »
Most mythologies have demons and devils that are human/animal hybrids.  Egyptians, Sumerians, Greeks, Romans, Norse...men...anyway...Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Hindu, Aztec, Mayan...hell, every culture and religion on earth uses anthropomorphized animals as a demon of some sort.

And big swords just look COOL.  Why do you think it is that no one uses Greek or Roman swords in movies?  Why is it that rapiers used in movies these days look very little like traditional rapiers but very thin broadswords?  Is it realistic?  Well, the Scottish used Claymores which I can vouch are as tall as most people (I'm 6'3" and my roommate's claymore comes to my eyes).  The Japanese developed a sword about 8-10 feet long.  The problem is that historically, these big swords were meant for attacking mounted opponents, chopping the horses' legs out from under them.  They're not meant for person-to-person combat...

But come on, they look awsome!!

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Offline Dom

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 05:05:32 PM »
Re #1, half-whatever demons...the examples you cite are actually something I see as taken from asian mythology.  For example, there is a Japanese spirit called a kitsune, which will sometimes appear in human form and have one or many fox tails.  People borrow from mythology a lot, so the kitsune, and other "half human" characters show up in stories because people base some aspects of their stories on mythology.

Re: #2, absurdly-large swords...this is something seen in anime, not SFF fiction, and I believe they do it because in art form it can look pretty cool.  It's just an art style.

Do I use these in my stories?  I do use half-human creatures, yes.  I don't use extra-large swords, though, because I'm a writer, not a visual artist.  It doesn't make sense in written form.

The reason I use half-human creatures is twofold...I like to explore ideas of what exactly makes us human.  What human is, and what it isn't.  Octavia Butler is one of my favorite authors, and many of her books dealt with part-humans, and explored what makes us human--I seem to have a very strong leaning in that direction myself.  Secondly, if I have a part-human character, he or she is an ambassador between human and non-human.  So I have a narrator which bridges the gap between something human and known, and something inhuman and unknown.  I'm not forced to use an entirely non-human narrator and dilute their alienness so folks can understand him/her.

It also makes for interesting characterization sometimes.  I have an urban fantasy where I have a faun character--he's half human, half minotaur.  The way he dresses is affected by how he looks...he wears a hat all the time to hide his horns, and he's very body-shy and won't go swimming with people or disrobe in any way around them.  If he was a purely human character, he'd seem eccentric or shy, but with a part-human character you can see there's a reason in his life he does this.  You can also explore bi-racial themes without actually having a half [insert race here] / half [insert other race here] character, and one of the bonuses of SFF is that you can explore real world issues in this way without touching on Hot Topic Real World Issues hard enough to taint the viewpoint you're trying to give someone. (IE, people hear about the hot topic issues so often that when someone touches on it in mainstream fiction or the news, people react one way or another automatically.  If you approach it very subtlely in a sideways manner in SFF fiction, you can discuss it without the reader realizing at first that it's a Hot Topic Issue.  Some of these issues being racial, which touches back on the half-breed character thing.)

So yeah, I have a reason for half-human creatures. :)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 05:07:03 PM by Dom »
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 05:18:12 PM »
1. Cat/fox/monkey/cow/anything else -demons. Uh-uh. I don't see why so many people were/are fascinated with a dude that has a tail growing out of his rear. While some people will certainly think differently, I don't see the huge deal about it. Why cross a human with a fox, what's the point?

What this immediately suggests to me is an Ancient Evil that's slowly seeping back into the world, and that finds it easier to take and warp animals than sentient beings, and the different ways that could work and what they would mean about which animals you were most likely to see being affected.  The only premise you really have to grant for it to make sense for them to become more humanoid is that hands are rather useful, which I do not think is a stretch.

2. Insanely big weapons. Why do people think swords that are taller than them are cool? And, how come almost all the people I talk to about this are willing to defend it vehemently, saying it's just really big, and we could use them in real life if we had them?

Maybe you talk to too many people who don't know squat about swords.

The situation in which a long heavy sword actually makes sense is if you're riding a heavy-cavalry sized horse and you need to be able to hit the infantry you're charging through before they cut you down or get close enough to disable your steed.

The other place where "it's cool" is kind of a defence for really big swords is ones that are more for display than use; I've seen executioner's swords that nobody in their right minds would try to actually fight with, you'd swing once, miss, and get killed half a dozen times while trying to stop the blasted thing and bring it back for another swing. But if all you have to do with it is chop the head off some poor wretch kneeling in front of you in a showy fashion, one stroke is all you should need, and it needs weight enough to go all the way through on one swing unless you want to stand there hacking and looking like an incompetent.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 09:16:02 PM by neurovore »
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Offline terioncalling

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2007, 02:19:43 AM »
1. Cat/fox/monkey/cow/anything else -demons. Uh-uh. I don't see why so many people were/are fascinated with a dude that has a tail growing out of his rear. While some people will certainly think differently, I don't see the huge deal about it. Why cross a human with a fox, what's the point?

Usually because its interesting to come up with something.  I have two races of the like in a big fantasy world I'm currently writing in.  One is a set of cat-people and the other are sort of wolfish humanoids with horns that spawned from a failed attempt at drawing my Tauren Druid from WoW.  Both are races affected by magic, though, so they were originally human.

I'd explain more on them but that would give away thing's that will come up in the stories in that world that I'm not willing to tell people.  Would completely ruin things if you went and read them.

2. Insanely big weapons. Why do people think swords that are taller than them are cool? And, how come almost all the people I talk to about this are willing to defend it vehemently, saying it's just really big, and we could use them in real life if we had them?

The really insanely big weapons are more seen in anime (Samurai Deeper Kyo or Bleach) or games (Cloud and Sephiroth from Final Fantasy 7) than anywhere else.  Large weapons in reality are really only useful when on horseback or attacking someone on horseback - in a regular old swordfight you'd die trying to use one.  The insanely big one's are just always seen as more cool than regular old weapons.

Sometimes the overlarge weapons make sense - there's an actual explanation for the big weapon used by the main character Ichigo in Bleach - but usually they don't.  Sometimes it just goes with the character.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 02:26:36 AM by terioncalling »
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Offline Valkyrina

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007, 12:17:06 AM »
just a quick note on point #2.

Would you want to bring about the apocalypse with a butter knife...?

...

Thought not.

Sharon.
vini, vidi, evicerate - Me 2005

Offline jtaylor

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2007, 12:57:43 AM »
Well, there is a legitimate use for a giant 2-handed sword used by foot. The flamberge was used by heavily armored foot soldiers to neutralize pikes. You could use the blade to either cut or foul the shafts of several pikes at once, giving your more traditionally armed soldiers openings to kill the pikemen. The blade itself while large actually only has about 3 feet of cutting edge. The blade can be grasped above the quillions for close fighting, and it only weighs about 8 pounds. This is significant as most swords weigh around 3 pounds, but when used by a warrior trained in its use it can be devastating.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 12:59:31 AM by jtaylor »
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Offline terioncalling

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2007, 02:17:15 AM »
just a quick note on point #2.

Would you want to bring about the apocalypse with a butter knife...?

...

Thought not.

Sharon.

...I am so tempted to write a story where a character is armed with a butter knife whilst trying to stop an apocalypse now.

And here's a small snippet I just jotted out in Word:

Quote
My life blows.

No, really, it does.

Here I am, bleeding and covered in grime that’s made of stuff I don’t even want to think about, and standing in front of one of the scariest things mankind has ever seen – a god walking on earth.  Don’t ask what god; nobody knows or really cares to find out anymore.

But, yeah, here I stand with a crazy, gun-toting Amazon woman to my right and a half-reformed Black Mage to my left while everyone else runs in terror.  And what do I have?  A frickin’ butter knife.

See?  My life really does blow.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 02:49:34 AM by terioncalling »
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no light. If I lose paper and ink, I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them to you." - Henry Rollins

Offline Valkyrina

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2007, 09:30:49 AM »
^_^

Spreading inspiration wherever I go.

Make his life suck more... it's a plastic knife.

The god has a spork.

Stalemate...

lol
vini, vidi, evicerate - Me 2005

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007, 06:30:34 PM »
just a quick note on point #2.

Would you want to bring about the apocalypse with a butter knife...?

"So, what do you do, then ?"
I paused in the middle of buttering my crumpet. "Oh, I'm with the Department of Eschatology."
"Pure or Applied ?"
"Trust me. You don't want to know."
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

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Offline Velkyn_Faer

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Re: Unrealism In Books
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2007, 11:55:30 PM »
So many to reply to, and so little time.

I'll keep it general, because I truly have very little time.


Belial: True, true, I can understand the 'familiar but only just familiar' feeling (as in, it is related to humans, but with crazy traits. Something we know, but also something totally wild.) , and setting the reader off balance. Thank you.

About the swords, that was what I was getting at. Other than cavalry purposes, (didn't think of that, thank you to all who mentioned it.) who is going to use a weapon that 
Quote
nobody in their right minds would try to actually fight with, you'd swing once, miss, and get killed half a dozen times while trying to stop the blasted thing and bring it back for another swing
as neurovore said.

On the note of 'they look awesome' I do have to agree, but I personally try to keep things as real to the story and the world the story takes place in as possible. I think that's the key.

Quote
Well, there is a legitimate use for a giant 2-handed sword used by foot. The flamberge was used by heavily armored foot soldiers to neutralize pikes. You could use the blade to either cut or foul the shafts of several pikes at once, giving your more traditionally armed soldiers openings to kill the pikemen. The blade itself while large actually only has about 3 feet of cutting edge. The blade can be grasped above the quillions for close fighting, and it only weighs about 8 pounds. This is significant as most swords weigh around 3 pounds, but when used by a warrior trained in its use it can be devastating.
That makes perfect sense, and has real-life usage. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I'll keep that in mind for the story I'm writing.

As to the butter knife, Jim Butcher should totally have Harry in a fight with that. He's laying in a ruined diner, smoke drifting in the air, with tables and chairs overturned everywhere. His opponent stands over him and kicks his blasting rod away with a laugh. Harry snarls a curse and rolls, searching for anything to use to fight back. His hand closes on something, and he hauls himself to his feet, lifting his weapon. His eyes widen with surprise as he realizes that he held a butter knife. It would have to do.

(Not much credit to my writing, but I slapped that out without thinking, so take it as it is. But, Jim should totally do that.)

Velkyn