Enchanted Items Patch - Important, holy crap!

[KCR103]

I don't know if I missed something, but don't the new rules kill the usefulness of the Frequency (Crafting) specialization for Thaumaturgy?  Why use Refinement to get a +1 to Frequency (which gives an additional use to each enchanted item) when one could get a +1 to Strength (which could be used to boost overall power for each enchanted item or be used to give one additional use)?  Shouldn't the Frequency (Crafting) specialization give 2 uses/+1 similar to the use of enchanted item slots?

[iago]

I don't know if I missed something, but don't the new rules kill the usefulness of the Frequency (Crafting) specialization for Thaumaturgy?  Why use Refinement to get a +1 to Frequency (which gives an additional use to each enchanted item) when one could get a +1 to Strength (which could be used to boost overall power for each enchanted item or be used to give one additional use)?  Shouldn't the Frequency (Crafting) specialization give 2 uses/+1 similar to the use of enchanted item slots?

The way the rewrite goes, you don't add in the specialization bonuses until after you've made your "trades". So you can't trade that +1 Strength from your specialization (or focus item) in for frequency, you can only trade in the shifts of Strength you have in your base.

[KCR103]

The way the rewrite goes, you don't add in the specialization bonuses until after you've made your "trades". So you can't trade that +1 Strength from your specialization (or focus item) in for frequency, you can only trade in the shifts of Strength you have in your base.

That makes sense, but I still don't know if I like the "devaluing" of the frequency specialization as it compares to the strength specialization that this implies (strength specialization raises Lore, while frequency specialization can reproduce only one effect of Lore (a sacrifice of one shift for additional uses)).

[Korwin]

I don't know if I missed something, but don't the new rules kill the usefulness of the Frequency (Crafting) specialization for Thaumaturgy?  Why use Refinement to get a +1 to Frequency (which gives an additional use to each enchanted item) when one could get a +1 to Strength (which could be used to boost overall power for each enchanted item or be used to give one additional use)?  Shouldn't the Frequency (Crafting) specialization give 2 uses/+1 similar to the use of enchanted item slots?

For an +2 into crafting strenght you need an +1 somewhere on the Thaumaturgical side.
For an +3 into crafting strenght you need an +2 and an +1 somewhere.

If you want an superb item crafter it makes sense to give it into item freqency...

[Biff Dyskolos]

That makes sense, but I still don't know if I like the "devaluing" of the frequency specialization as it compares to the strength specialization that this implies (strength specialization raises Lore, while frequency specialization can reproduce only one effect of Lore (a sacrifice of one shift for additional uses)).

Or it may increase the value of the Frequency specialization.

By using an additional item slots you get +2 uses per slot. If this assumes a base 1-use slot and your Frequency +1 specialization makes your slots base 2-uses then that must affect the calculation somehow. Using extra slots could give you either base*2 or base+1 extra uses.

All the examples so far seem to assume base 1-use slots so I assume that the details are still being worked out.

[Korwin]

Thaumaturgic Spells can be made into items?

I'm thinkin about those Wolfbelts from the Hexenwulfen (Item of Power would be a possibility, but those Belts werent hard to destroy. And to be honest I want to know how to do it with Thaumaturgy)

It would be great if someone (knowledgeable) could calculate how much shifts all those Shapechanging abilities are worth.

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How difficult is it for Leansidhe to change somebody into an hellhound

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm thinkin about those Wolfbelts from the Hexenwulfen (Item of Power would be a possibility, but those Belts werent hard to destroy. And to be honest I want to know how to do it with Thaumaturgy)

While I agree with your general point, Hexenwulfen belts actually are Items of Power and have to be, since formerly Pure Mortals can use them.

And what makes you think they're easy to destroy? I don't think any of them got destroyed prior to their bearer's deaths, and having to kill the owner to destroy it is close enough to indestructible for practical purposes.

[iago]

Yeah, sometimes the situation goes well beyond what the small scale items (i.e., enchanted items et al) system can do and has to extend into powers and refresh cost. Nature of the beast. If we had to make it so every magical effect ever could be encapsulated in the crafted items subsystem of spellcraft, you'd still be waiting on the RPG to go into preorder... for another year.

[Korwin]

Where all FBI goons killed? Not shure, cant remember if the Werewolf got them all.

Even if, they all died. Seems like an lame destroy condition. The Swords of the Cross would be gone the way of history with this condition...

Yeah, sometimes the situation goes well beyond what the small scale items (i.e., enchanted items et al) system can do and has to extend into powers and refresh cost. Nature of the beast. If we had to make it so every magical effect ever could be encapsulated in the crafted items subsystem of spellcraft, you'd still be waiting on the RPG to go into preorder... for another year.

If its not possible to change (yourself) into an animal (with magic/Thaumaturgy with or without item) it should say so somewhere. 
If its possible, I want to know how it works 

Or how about a guideline.
When should it be an Item of Power?
Or an Potion?
Or how about changing the effect off an potion in an permanent Magic Item (like the Anti-Fairy-Glamour Potion)

Another question. Should we flat out disallow Thaumaturgic spells in Magic Items? Like an Invisible Cloak?
Or you can only make it into an item, if you can make Thaumaturic Spells at Evocation Speed (ie. Sponsored Magic

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would explain Leansidhe

.)

For Thaumaturgy generally I would wish for an ton more examples and guidelines...
(not necessarily in the RPG, but somewhere)

[iago]

When should it be an Item of Power?

Likely whenever the spell effect you're going for can't be encapsulated within the casting strength limits of an enchanted item.

Another question. Should we flat out disallow Thaumaturgic spells in Magic Items?

No.

[Deadmanwalking]

Where all FBI goons killed? Not shure, cant remember if the Werewolf got them all.

Even if, they all died. Seems like an lame destroy condition. The Swords of the Cross would be gone the way of history with this condition...

Yeah, Murphy shot the leader, two of them killed each other, and I forget what the final one died of, but they're all dead.

As for the comparison, consider that Harry thought he could make a Hexenwulf belt. People don't think that kind of thing about the Swords. Not all Items of Power are equal. From a gameplay perspective, taking them permanently away from a PC just needs to be impossible. Needing the bearer slain to destroy them fits that condition nicely.


I do, however, think we need brief guidelines for Thaumaturgical shapeshifting. It's probably not gonna be available in the midst of combat without buying some other power, but it's clearly an available ability in the setting, and some basic guidelines on difficulty seem somewhat necessary.

[iago]

Three of them killed each other.

[Korwin]

Likely whenever the spell effect you're going for can't be encapsulated within the casting strength limits of an enchanted item.

So it depends on the Caster.
A young one would need to make an Item of Power.
An old expierenced Wizard could make it as an Magic Item.

As for the comparison, consider that Harry thought he could make a Hexenwulf belt. People don't think that kind of thing about the Swords.

I think thats the reason why I thougth about them as Magic Item and not as Item of Power.
Harry thought he could make one...

I do, however, think we need brief guidelines for Thaumaturgical shapeshifting. It's probably not gonna be available in the midst of combat without buying some other power, but it's clearly an available ability in the setting, and some basic guidelines on difficulty seem somewhat necessary.

+1

[iago]

I've split off the thaumaturgical shapeshifting conversation that followed the above to a new thread, as I think it runs the risk of getting lost in here:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17367.0.html

[iago]

What powers would be work best for an Item Of Power whose sole purpose is to block spells - any spell - without needing a spell-caster to use it?  And when I say "block" I mean "hold it between you and the incoming magic and the spell is blocked" - though not, I imagine, with absolute certainty of success.  To be honest, I'm not entirely certain such an item is possible in the setting...

Ooh, that's an interesting question. I'm gonna split it off to its own thread and think about it.