Harry's Stats plus Assorted Other Stat Revisions (Small Favor through Cold Days)

[Deadmanwalking]

Why do you think her skills are all Great+? I don't see why she should have impressive Endurance, Might, or Fists for example, and Harry tricks her in GP (the ghost dust thing) so even her social skills probably aren't universally high.

I do think her physical stats are that high, yeah. Or Good at least. And as for her social skills, that particular thing would be opposed by her Empathy...which I'd peg at Great, which is to say one of her lowest skills, plus she had several disadvantages in that situation, and Harry totally burned FP on that.

Killing two Lords of Outer Night was really impressive, but she might have taken a ton of sponsor debt on that one... really, I think a lot of that "indulge yourself" stuff in Changes might have been sponsor debt based.

I'll have to re-read Changes to really argue about that...so wait a while and I'll perhaps do that.

[Deadmanwalking]

Luccio has been adjusted slightly (well, her items have, more accurately). Just for the record.

[Sanctaphrax]

I suppose, but this isn't one of those.

Both of the "look exactly like somebody" Powers do that. So the inference that looking exactly like somebody ought to include a +4 disguise bonus seems a reasonable inference to me.

I disagree. It can kill or inflict Consequences, that makes it an attack. What other criteria are there for something being an attack?

Attacks can't inflict consequences. People take consequences in order to avoid being taken out by attacks.

When you attack, you declare what you want to happen to your victim and if they aren't willing able to spend enough stress/consequences to stop your attack then that thing happens.

Thaumaturgy spells that calculate their complexity by the conflict method don't work like that. If you want to inflict a mild-consequence-level injury to me, I can't stop you by taking a consequence other than the one you want.

Thaumaturgy is its own thing, about halfway between an attack and a consequential contest.

Just always have. Why would you assume the spell rules break all the other game rules in this area?

They don't break any rules. They have their own rules. That's my reading, any-hoo.

Uh...no, not really. You seem to be the one doing that (saying you always need 32 shifts regardless of circumstances). Taking someone out is enormously variable based on their current condition, willingness, and how good their defenses are. Something that can take anyone out no matter how good all that stuff is? Like that spell? Scary.

Not necessarily 32. And I'd charge extra for take-out results that exceed normal limitations.

But you're saying that turning somebody into a dog and giving them a heart attack should have the same complexity. So why should blowing someone's heart up and giving them a heart attack have different complexities?

Not really. Willingness really should matter in how easy it is to perform magic on someone.

Not what I meant. I meant the issue is that supposedly-impressive magic can be performed for fun by extremely weak spellcasters.

They talk about how difficulty it is to get the biology right when transforming people in the books. Why would you let people ignore all that difficulty?

[Jebm]

I could have sworn Luccio had a blasting rod in Small Favor, right after Micheal kills the last of the Hobs

[Mrmdubois]

She has a small, slender staff.  It's in Dead Beat too.

I don't think there's really been any indication of what bonuses it might give though.

[Deadmanwalking]

Both of the "look exactly like somebody" Powers do that. So the inference that looking exactly like somebody ought to include a +4 disguise bonus seems a reasonable inference to me.

That's because True Shapeshifting is a big block of other shapeshifting powers all balled together, not necessarily because it's the only way to achieve that effect.

Attacks can't inflict consequences. People take consequences in order to avoid being taken out by attacks.

When you attack, you declare what you want to happen to your victim and if they aren't willing able to spend enough stress/consequences to stop your attack then that thing happens.

Thaumaturgy spells that calculate their complexity by the conflict method don't work like that. If you want to inflict a mild-consequence-level injury to me, I can't stop you by taking a consequence other than the one you want.

Thaumaturgy is its own thing, about halfway between an attack and a consequential contest.

True enough for spells that inflict consequences. Still, I'm pretty convinced that's not the way it works on this kind of thing. In fact, specifically now that I consider why I've always felt this way, I think this because of the following conversation I had with the folks at Evil Hat, where I discuss doing precisely this (the voluntary version, anyway). I know you don't care about that, but just in case the others reading do...

They don't break any rules. They have their own rules. That's my reading, any-hoo.

That's far from clear.

Not necessarily 32. And I'd charge extra for take-out results that exceed normal limitations.

But you're saying that turning somebody into a dog and giving them a heart attack should have the same complexity. So why should blowing someone's heart up and giving them a heart attack have different complexities?

I'm saying that a Wizard examining a magical crime scene can tell how much power would be needed to do X, at least roughly. You might be able to explode a heart with less, but it'd look significantly different than that version.

Not what I meant. I meant the issue is that supposedly-impressive magic can be performed for fun by extremely weak spellcasters.

They talk about how difficulty it is to get the biology right when transforming people in the books. Why would you let people ignore all that difficulty?

I wouldn't. That's what Compels are for, and I'd very seriously compel them not to even try that as it's too dangerous. That said, it's not actually magical difficulty, it's a difficulty in having a precise enough understanding of biology. I.e. a high Scholarship score. Hell, the Alphas learn to do it after (it's implied) only a few months of training with no grounding in magical ability whatsoever. And do it pretty much perfectly and at-will.

[Deadmanwalking]

I could have sworn Luccio had a blasting rod in Small Favor, right after Micheal kills the last of the Hobs

She has a small, slender staff.  It's in Dead Beat too.

I don't think there's really been any indication of what bonuses it might give though.

This. The bonuses are speculative, and it's apparently 5 feet long (according to Small Favor). I'd call that a staff more than a rod.

[Sanctaphrax]

And my second explanation makes just as much sense. As does the meta explanation that he didn't know how many Consequences those people had and just assumed the worst, an assumption confirmed by his later research.

I don't think I said that. Quote tag error?

I'm saying that a Wizard examining a magical crime scene can tell how much power would be needed to do X, at least roughly. You might be able to explode a heart with less, but it'd look significantly different than that version.

That's reasonable, I suppose.

I wouldn't. That's what Compels are for, and I'd very seriously compel them not to even try that as it's too dangerous. That said, it's not actually magical difficulty, it's a difficulty in having a precise enough understanding of biology. I.e. a high Scholarship score. Hell, the Alphas learn to do it after (it's implied) only a few months of training with no grounding in magical ability whatsoever. And do it pretty much perfectly and at-will.

The Alphas spent months training to learn one spell with an expert as a teacher. That's quite a lot of effort for 5 complexity.

Non-magical difficulty of a magical spell is generally represented with (mundane-skill-based) Declarations.

If you find yourself using Compels to block a usage of the rules, that usage is probably bad. Compels are supposed to come from Aspects, but your proposed Compels don't.

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't think I said that. Quote tag error?

I think you're right, but it's on your end, check your previous post.

That's reasonable, I suppose.

Thanks.

The Alphas spent months training to learn one spell with an expert as a teacher. That's quite a lot of effort for 5 complexity.

Non-magical difficulty of a magical spell is generally represented with (mundane-skill-based) Declarations.

Sure...but this appears to be just a matter of mundane skill, and of merely having it, not necessarily using it successfully. There's not really a mechanic for that in-game...it's sorta a different thing from the normal way things work. All biomancy (and pretty much biomancy specifically) is, per Harry's description.

If you find yourself using Compels to block a usage of the rules, that usage is probably bad. Compels are supposed to come from Aspects, but your proposed Compels don't.

I'd allow it if they forsook the Compel.

And using any 'Wizard' type Aspect to compel not breaking the Laws or doing reckless things with magic is pretty legitimate. Ditto compelling anyone with any High Concept involving being something less than a Wizard doing just about anything complex with magic ('You're only a Sorcerer, Wizards are scared of that, are you sure you're ready?'). And if your High Concept doesn't include either of those...it probably doesn't include spellcasting, does it? I guess if you had it anyway I wouldn't compel you...but that seems unlikely.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think you're right, but it's on your end, check your previous post.

You're right. Fixed.

I seem to be making a lot of minor errors at the moment, I just posted a Power without a Refresh cost.

Sure...but this appears to be just a matter of mundane skill, and of merely having it, not necessarily using it successfully. There's not really a mechanic for that in-game...it's sorta a different thing from the normal way things work. All biomancy (and pretty much biomancy specifically) is, per Harry's description.

That's normal for Thaumaturgy. Conjuration has almost exactly the same issue. I don't see much reason to make special rules.

I'd allow it if they forsook the Compel.

And using any 'Wizard' type Aspect to compel not breaking the Laws or doing reckless things with magic is pretty legitimate. Ditto compelling anyone with any High Concept involving being something less than a Wizard doing just about anything complex with magic ('You're only a Sorcerer, Wizards are scared of that, are you sure you're ready?'). And if your High Concept doesn't include either of those...it probably doesn't include spellcasting, does it? I guess if you had it anyway I wouldn't compel you...but that seems unlikely.

You're still deciding on a Compel without even seeing the character's Aspects. That ain't good, it's like deciding on the conclusion of your research before finishing the experiment.

Also, papering over problems with Compels remains unwise regardless.

[Deadmanwalking]

You're right. Fixed.

I seem to be making a lot of minor errors at the moment, I just posted a Power without a Refresh cost.

Yeah, I get like that whenever I don't get enough sleep. It's annoying.

That's normal for Thaumaturgy. Conjuration has almost exactly the same issue. I don't see much reason to make special rules.

I'm not making any special rules though, just noting that, like making anything mechanical that actually works with Conjuration, you need a knowledge base to do this in-world. I'm not changing the rules at all, just pointing out an area where the prerequisites described in the books are, in game terms, more thematic than mechanical.

You're still deciding on a Compel without even seeing the character's Aspects. That ain't good, it's like deciding on the conclusion of your research before finishing the experiment.

It's the same thing as discussing a vampire and talking about compelling him to feed in a discussion of, oh, Blood Drinker. It's an assumed part of the high concept that almost always involves the power in question.

Also, papering over problems with Compels remains unwise regardless.

I disagree. As as stated above, this is a thematic restriction more than a mechanical one, and thus a perfect subject for Compels. Heck, for most Wizards I'd be inclined to say it falls under a 'Blind Spots' kinda thing, as described on p. 179 of YS...though perhaps not to quite that extent since they lack a separate Aspect for it.

A Wizard who was, say, a doctor as well would, of course, be a very different matter.

[Deadmanwalking]

Name: Nicodemus Archleone

Aspects:
High Concept: First Among the Denarians
Trouble: Pride Goeth Before Everything
Other:
Anduriel’s Host;
Been around for a Long, Long Year;
That soul which has the greatest Punishment;
Try Not My Patience;
I rejoice over the corpses of Knights

Skills:

Fantastic: Contacts, Lore, Weapons,
Superb: Conviction, Deceit, Presence, Resources,
Great: Alertness, Athletics, Discipline, Fists,
Everything else defaults to Good.

Stunts:

Takes One To Know One (Deceit) (-1)
Filthy Lucre (Resources) (-1)
Linguist (Scholarship) (-1)
Riposte (Weapons) (-1)

Powers:

Supernatural Mental Toughness [-4]
The Catch is credible threats to his personal health [+0]
Marked By Power [-1]
Refinement [-8]
Evocation [-3]
Thaumaturgy [-3]
Sponsored Magic: Hellfire [-2]
Wings [-1]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch is holy stuff [+2]

Item of Power (Barrabas Noose) [+1] effecting;
Physical Immunity [-8]
The Catch is the Noose Itself [+2]
Refinement [-3] (+3 Control and Complexity for Entropomancy)

Total: -38 Refresh

Specializations:

Evocation: Elements (Earth, Water, Spirit); Power (Spirit +2), Control (Spirit+3, Water +1)
Thaumaturgy: Control (Summoning and Binding +1, Entropomancy +3, Transformation and Disruption +1); Complexity (Summoning and Binding +4, Entropomancy +6, Transportation and Worldwalking +2, Transformation and Disruption +5)

Focus Items:
Barrabas Noose [+4 Complexity with Entropomancy]

Stress:

Mental: OOOO(OOOO) (+1 Mild Consequence)
Physical: OOOO(OO)
Social: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence)
Armor: Infinite, 1, 2 vs. mental stuff, or by spell or item effect.

Nicodemus's mystical abilities are assumed. He's never actually demonstrated any per se. But then, he hardly needs to in combat, and someone did the heavy lifting on the curse the Shroud was supposed to enable. My interpretation is that it was Nick. I made him only decent at Evocation to explain why he doesn't use it too much, though personally I tend to think his shadow attacking people is his own version of that. Still, it's not that effective in the grand scheme compared to some other Denarians' magic, so crappy at Evocations he is (relatively speaking).

The noose has a +2 Catch solely for availability, since it's definitionally available to anyone who wants to use it.The Entropomancy Refinements are to enable the Barrabas curse (it'd probably give someone sans Thaumaturgy Ritual - Entropomancy and one Refinement, staying the same level of focus Item), and he curses with flare with that thing (16 shifts off the top of his head...never mind if he puts some effort in).

The physical defensive stuff is assumed since the noose makes them irrelevant in many ways.

I'll probably be statting up Tessa, Rosanna, Thorned Namshiel, Deirdre and Magog as well. I'll also think about doing Saluriel and Ursiel. The other Denarians are (effectively) nameless thugs with Great skills in combat (and Intimidation and Lore) and Inhuman to Supernatural physical stuff plus a Creature Feature or two. They're frightening, but not really in need of full sheets per se. Well, ignoring Lasciel anyway...and her we've never seen in action so her stats are highly speculative.

EDIT: Added Supernatural Mental Toughness, for appropriateness.

[Deadmanwalking]

Name: Polonius Lartessa

Aspects:
High Concept: Elder Denarian
Trouble: Must Destroy Whole and Healthy Things
Other:
Small and Wily;
Short-Tempered; 
Host of Imariel;
Wife of Nicodemus;

Skills:

Superb: Contacts, Deceit, Lore, Presence,
Great: Athletics, Conviction, Discipline, Fists,
Good: Alertness, Endurance, Rapport, Resources,
Everything else, except possibly a few modern skills like Driving and Guns, defaults to Fair.

Stunts:

Takes One To Know One (Deceit) (-1)
Linguist (Scholarship) (-1)

Powers:

Inhuman Mental Toughness [-2]
Refinements [-11]
Evocation [–3]
Thaumaturgy [–3]
Sponsored Magic: Hellfire [-2]
The Sight [–1]
Claws [-1]
Wings [-1]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Mythic Recovery [-6]
The Catch is holy stuff [+2]

Total: -36 Refresh

Specializations:

Evocation: Elements (Air, Water, Spirit); Power (Air +4, Water +2), Control (Air +5, Water +3, Spirit +1)
Thaumaturgy: Control (Hellfire +1); Complexity (Hellfire +3, Veils +1, Wards +2)

Focus Items:
Bracelet [+2 Defensive Power +1 Defensive Control with Air]
Rod [+2 Offensive Power +1 Offensive Control with Air]

Stress:

Mental: OOOO(OO)
Physical: OOOO(OO)
Social: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence)
Armor: 1 vs. physical or mental effects, otherwise by spell or item effect.

Here's Tessa. She's a lot less scary than Nicodemus...but she's still a leader of the Denarians and a scary lady. Her Evocations are quite good at 10 shifts, putting her on par with Morgan, and her Thaumaturgy is decent, though not spectacular. She's an old and frightening creature.

She was by far the biggest threat of the Denarians fighting the Archive magically speaking, with the skill to make Ivy focus a full half of her attention on her (by my interpretation, this puts her, Nicodemus, Rosanna, Quintus Cassius [when he was around] and Thorned Namshiel as the spellcasters in the Denarians' ranks. Well, and probably Lasciel. And her the second best Evoker after Namshiel. One or more of the minions might have some magic, but not a whole lt.) I went with her Thaumaturgy being bad as yet another sign of the short term/long-term approaches that differentiate her and Nicodemus. He does slow magic that effects many, she hurls thunderbolts.

EDIT: Added Inhuman Mental Toughness.

[Deadmanwalking]

Name: Ivy

Aspects:
High Concept: The Archive
Trouble: I'm Just A Kid
Other:
Knowledge is my Shield;
On the Shoulders of Giants;
Tortured by the Denarians;
Look, a Kitty!;
Kincaid’s Contract;
General of the Oblivion War;

Skills:

Legendary: Lore, Scholarship,
Epic: Conviction, Discipline
Fantastic: Investigation, Resources,
Superb: Contacts, Craftsmanship,
Great: Alertness, Deceit, Rapport,
Good: Athletics, Empathy, Intimidation, Presence, 
Fair: Burglary, Performance, Stealth, Survival,
Average: Endurance, Fists, Guns, Weapons,

Stunts:

Maybe a Resources stunt or two, also see below.

Powers:

The Archive (Not only does Ivy have Legendary levels in Lore and Scholarship, she has literally every possible Mundane stunt for both those skills simultaneously. Yes that is as broken and frightening as it sounds, and yes it does mean she's usually working at at least Scholarship and Lore 10, doing everything two time increments quicker, and lowering all difficulties by two each simultaneously. She should be. She can also sub them in (at their base of Legendary) for any other skill your GM would allow such a substitution on. She also knows anything and everything written down as soon as it is, making her able to ignore any research rolls required for, well, almost anything.) [-?]
Refinements [-?]
Mythic Mental Toughness [-6]
Evocation [–3]
Thaumaturgy [–3]
The Sight [–1]
Soulgaze [+0]
Wizard’s Constitution [+0]

Total: -??? Refresh

Specializations:

Definitionally, she has a +8 Specialization on every possible kind of magic (or at least Thaumaturgy...it could be argued that some degree of Evocation specialty is practice...in which case she might have somewhat less in some areas, but I doubt it). Period. And all spells are Rote Spells. And that's only the beginning. Her ability to do multiple spells simultaneously and not take mental stress from doing them is also notable. She'd also, definitionally, have any and all forms of self-sponsored magic that simply represent knowledge, as opposed to commitment to some goal. So, 15 shift Evocations, boys and girls. Plus Senior Council level or better thaumaturgy. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Stress:

Mental: OOOO(OOOOOO) (+2 Mild Consequences)
Physical: OOO
Social: OOOO
Armor: 3 vs. mental effects, otherwise by spell or item effect.

Yeah...people wanted unstattable things...here's an example of something like that. My sheet of Lea would be less complete than this one as Ivy has the downside of legitimate human weaknesses...Lea doesn't so much.

Anyway. Ivy here. She's really just awe-inspiringly deadly and unstoppable in her way. These stats aren't really for the Archive though, they're for the little girl. The Archive stuff is hand-wavey and plot-device level powerful, she can only be adequately interacted with or statted when dealing with those parts of her that are still just a person.

EDIT: Added Mythic Mental Toughness.

[Deadmanwalking]

Name: Rosanna

Aspects:
High Concept: Denarian Sorceress
Trouble: Tessa's Second
Other:
Sex Appeal;
Facade of Weakness;
Maiden of Sorrow;
Host to a Demon;

Skills:

Superb: Deceit, Presence,
Great: Discipline, Lore, Rapport, Intimidation, Fists,
Good: Alertness, Athletics, Conviction, Empathy, Endurance,
Fair: Contacts, Investigation, Resources, Scholarship, Stealth,
Average: Burglary, Driving, Guns, Might, Survival,

Stunts:

Takes One To Know One (Deceit) (-1)
Sex Appeal (Rapport) (-1)

Powers:

Refinements [-4]
Evocation [–3]
Thaumaturgy [–3]
Sponsored Magic: Hellfire [-2]
Claws [-1]
Wings [-1]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Supernatural Speed [-4]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch is holy stuff [+2]

Total: -26 Refresh

Specializations:

Evocation: Elements (Air, Fire, Spirit); Power (Fire +2), Control (Fire +3, Spirit +1)
Thaumaturgy: Control (Hellfire +1); Complexity (Hellfire +2)

Focus Items:
Ring [+2 Defensive Power with Fire]
Bracelet [+2 Offensive Power and +1 Offensive Control with Fire]

Stress:

Mental: OOOO
Physical: OOOO(OOOO)
Social: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence)
Armor: 2, or by spell or item effect.

Here's Rosanna, she's sorta Tessa writ small in many ways, though she's better at social stuff other than lying. She's a decent Evoker (at 7 shifts, 8 on offensive control), and also decent (though not fabulous) at hand to hand. Her exact physical bonuses are speculative. She might be a bit better or a bit worse at that stuff.
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In other news, Harry's advancements up through Small Favor have been completed. Meaning a complete timeline can now be worked out pretty easily.