Harry's Stats plus Assorted Other Stat Revisions (Small Favor through Cold Days)

[Deadmanwalking]

But if you want to make the Declarations with a skill, you need a stunt or Power adding that trapping to the skill.

And we do want to make the Declarations with a skill (probably Conviction) because it's narratively appropriate for willpower to dictate how well the ghost mojo works and because most ghosts (including Harry) won't have the FP to do many Declarations without a skill.

He was a 20+ Refresh character with maybe 3-6 points worth of powers/stunts who got Compelled every time he couldn't interact with something physically (or, if you think he kept his powers and just lost access, then he also got a Compel every time he would've used magic but couldn't). Either way his Fate point total in Ghost Story was legendary.

Still, I do agree that he was making Conviction declarations in there, but it seemed more like a world rule than a power per se: Anyone who's acting as a ghost gets to make Conviction declarations. Much like having an adventure where the PCs are sucked into a dream and can manipulate things with Discipline rolls, this strikes me as a 'nature of the premise/world' temporary ability, not a power per se. The fact that's it is only Harry there makes the distinction weird...but I think anyone else in the same state would get the same ability, whether they were truly the same nature of being or not. So, more general rule of the weird state he was in than power.

[Deadmanwalking]

And I've added an index, for ease of use. Revisions of Fix, Lloyd Slate, and Ronald Reuel to follow (based on new knowledge of the Winter and Summer Knights).

EDIT: And all modified (slightly). all may come in for additional modification as I think about them, this is just the 'for sure' stuff.

[Sanctaphrax]

But that's what Powers are for. Representing the abilities that you get from the type of being you are. All Vampires are inhumanly strong, so they all have Strength Powers. All ghost-like-things can make willpower-based Declarations, so they all have a Power or Stunt that lets them do that.

I'm pretty sure Harry was still capable of casting spells in GS, it's just that his incorporeal nature made his spells pretty useless.

[Deadmanwalking]

But that's what Powers are for. Representing the abilities that you get from the type of being you are. All Vampires are inhumanly strong, so they all have Strength Powers. All ghost-like-things can make willpower-based Declarations, so they all have a Power or Stunt that lets them do that.

Okay, so your players' characters all get sucked into a very malleable dream realm. It's a function of that realm that anyone who's can use Discipline to make changes to it, making declarations. Would you charge all of them a power for this? I wouldn't, since everyone can do it in that realm. It's a function of the realm and not the character.

That's what I got the impression was going on there. Anyone and everyone in the realm/metaphysical state Harry was in could do that with Conviction, regardless of creature type or anything else. It was a changed world-rule, not a specific power of a kind of creature.

Now this can certainly be argued the other way...but that's my interpretation of what was occurring.

I'm pretty sure Harry was still capable of casting spells in GS, it's just that his incorporeal nature made his spells pretty useless.

He had some serious issues with it early on. And even later, he was using an entirely different methodology to cast the memories of spells...which might just be that Declaring thing. Or might be him keeping his magic. Hard to tell. He certainly didn't have the Winter Knight stuff and was getting compels like nobody's business.

[DFJunkie]

Harry's trouble, at least in CD, is more like "the predator within" than "the temptation of power."  He's already given into that temptation, now he has to deal with the fallout.

[Deadmanwalking]

Harry's trouble, at least in CD, is more like "the predator within" than "the temptation of power."  He's already given into that temptation, now he has to deal with the fallout.

Hmmmm. Maybe. I personally tend to think that's just how his sponsor debt manifests now (and sincehe's operating sans foci, he's racking up quite a bit of that)...but I can see your argument. On another level, though, that's just more of the same, isn't it? Giving into winter is the Temptation of Power.

Also, I've revised Rashid slightly based on Cold Days. This inclines me to revise the other senior Council Members as well (he went down two Refresh...it seems like the rest should follow).

EDIT: And done. I mostly just added a Refinement or two to them. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they all have little tricks lie Listens-to-Winds shapeshifting, Ebenezar's Item of Power or the Gatekeeper's perceptiveness...we don't know what they are, so it's hard to stat them up. I'd expect some variety Sponsored Magic to be fairly common, for example, if only the Leyline based version...but as we've never seen it, I can't stat it appropriately.

[DFJunkie]

Hmmmm. Maybe. I personally tend to think that's just how his sponsor debt manifests now (and sincehe's operating sans foci, he's racking up quite a bit of that)...but I can see your argument. On another level, though, that's just more of the same, isn't it? Giving into winter is the Temptation of Power.

You may be right about the sponsor debt, but I still don't think Temptation of Power applied during this book.  Maybe "One of the Monsters?"  (The question mark is part of the Aspect.)  In previous books Harry spent a good deal of time ruminating on the myriad offers he'd received and how taking one (or more) of them up would make his life easier.  In CD he spent the time lamenting his decision and wondering if he was doomed to become the next Lloyd Slate, only more powerful. 

Other possibilities would be "A Lot of Attention" (now that things are noticing him after his return from the dead) and "Strings Attached" (for all the people who have claims on him and complicate his life).

[Deadmanwalking]

Okay, you've talked me into it, Am I One of the Monsters? actually sounds perfect, revision coming right up.

Also, Mouse has been revised somewhat. Check him out.

EDIT: And there, Trouble Aspect changed.

[DFJunkie]

Awesome 

Reading about Mouse always makes me want a giant fuzzy friendly dog. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Okay, so your players' characters all get sucked into a very malleable dream realm. It's a function of that realm that anyone who's can use Discipline to make changes to it, making declarations. Would you charge all of them a power for this? I wouldn't, since everyone can do it in that realm. It's a function of the realm and not the character.

Not the same scenario at all. Harry's in the normal universe. He's just intangible. The various shenanigans come from being intangible.

And intangibility is definitely a Power, it's right there in YS.

[Deadmanwalking]

Not the same scenario at all. Harry's in the normal universe. He's just intangible. The various shenanigans come from being intangible.

And intangibility is definitely a Power, it's right there in YS.

Ahem, as per YS p.313 you can use literally any skill to make a Declaration by the basic rules...as long as it makes sense. To quote:

"In some situations, skills (knowledge skills like Scholarship are the most obvious, but any could apply) may allow a player to make a declaration." (Emphasis mine.)

I assert that being a ghost-like entity is a situation that allows Conviction declarations regarding other incorporeal things. It's clearly a world rule regardless of the precise nature of the creature who's doing it.

That's really the whole argument.

Powers are things not everyone has, if everyone who's incorporeal (even temporarily from a spell or some such) has this ability, it's a rules usage, not a power in it's own right. In other words, if a wizard astrally projects via Thaumaturgy, he should need to buy (with Tags or FP) Spirit Form and Physical Immunity (and maybe Wings to reflect flight). He should not need to buy this particular thing. He gets it just from, y'know, being incorporeal.

If you make it a separate power either A. the Wizard could choose not to have it, probably to save effort (which doesn't make sense world-wise, as that's basically what Harry was doing and he seems to have had it) or B. You have to force the Wizard to buy it...which makes no sense with any other mechanics anywhere.

It just works much better as a rule of the world. one not in the book since we didn't know it when the DFRPG came out.

[Sanctaphrax]

I know the Declaration rules. But the Conviction and Discipline skills don't normally include that sort of thing, regardless of incorporeality.

Your "world rule" approach has a notable issue in that it's really no different from just adding a line of text to Spirit Form. If Spirit Form makes you incorporeal and being incorporeal lets you do X, then Spirit Form lets you do X. Not including X in the Power serves no purpose other than to make things more complicated.

You'll notice that I included this in the Spirit Form rewrite. It would indeed by slightly silly for it to be separate.

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't necessarily have a problem with that logic. Indeed, I already said I'd give him Spirit Form. I was under the impression you were asking about adding something else entirely to allow that ability which...didn't make sense. Adding explicit note of the ability to use Conviction to make Declarations to the existing spirit form ability seems entirely reasonable (it's a good place for 'em)...but I never said otherwise.

I was specifically arguing that it wasn't necessary to have a new rule or stunt per se...which that isn't. It's a note about the way the existing rules interact with a particular Power, much the way 'Seek the Dead' is under Ghost Speaker. Neither strikes me as an actual power of the stunt, just an explicit note of the way the existing rules interact with it to avoid confusion.

I think we're in basic agreement here, and were simply arguing past each other due to some slightly different/confused terminology on both sides.

Or, more simply "What we had here was a failure to communicate."

[Deadmanwalking]

Fix has been updated. Well, sorta. He has changed between Small Favor and Cold Days...but not that much. His sheet's identical, but there are some advancement notes at the bottom.

EDIT: And a few slight changes to Maeve. I do mean slight, though.

[Deadmanwalking]

Name: Karrin Murphy

Aspects:
High Concept: Ex-Cop In The Know
Trouble: Making This Make Sense
Other:
Avenging Angel
Aikido Master
Champion Marksman
I Trust Harry Dresden
I Have To Protect This City

Skills:

Fantastic: Fists, Guns,
Superb: Conviction, Investigation,
Great: Athletics, Discipline, Intimidation,
Good: Alertness, Contacts, Empathy, Endurance,
Fair: Burglary, Driving, Lore, Stealth,
Average: Might, Presence, Rapport, Resources, Scholarship, Weapons,

Stunts:

Hard Boiled (Discipline) (-1)
Martial Artist (Fists) (-1)
Redirected Force (Fists) (-1)
Armed Arts: Short Clubs, Staves, Katana/Bokken, Baton (Fists) (-2)
Nasty Infighter: May use Fists instead of Might to initiate and hold grapples (Fists) (-1)
Footwork (Fists) (-1)
You Don't Want Any Of This (Intimidation) (-1)
Pin the Tail (Investigation) (-1)
Scene of the Crime (Investigation) (-1)
Fast Reload (Guns) (-1)
Target Rich Environment (Guns) (-1)

Total: -10 Refresh (Pure  Mortal)

Stress:

Mental: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence)
Physical: OOOO
Social: OOO
Armor: Usually, 1-2 from sort of worn armor.

And here's Murphy per Cold Days sans supernatural powers. She's been training a bunch, mostly in hand-to hand, and her Conviction's gone up pretty high as well, and her Intimidation and Discipline have been climbing, too. Her Contacts represent her being part of a scarily efficient organization, these days. She's a very scary lady now (she even got an Intimidation stunt for it). Not that she wasn't always...

She's got a couple of supernatural power suites she could accept...but until then, she's got more Fate Points than are quite reasonable, I mean, 18? Really? Damn.