Author Topic: Harry's Stats plus Assorted Other Stat Revisions (Small Favor through Cold Days)  (Read 206098 times)

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Where? Is it when she cries out in pain after the Grendelkin breaks her arm and is then defenseless for the rest of that story? Or is it when she's clearly in too much pain to do much when her guts are hanging out?

When she's actually fighting? Yeah, she can feel it, but it doesn't seem to actually impair her. Damage impairs her (like an inability to use a broken arm effectively), but pain? Not so much. Again, see Even Hand for examples.

I haven't, so fair enough. I posit, though, that the axe in Heorot was not the same axe as the one in Even Hand, since she loses that first axe.

Very possible. I'm...not sure how this is a criticism (given it's a current, ie: post-Heorot build), but very possible.

I don't think she knew at all that it was immune--you'd think during that whole information session thing before the fight, she might have mentioned that to Harry.

Immune to her magic and immune to Harry's are different things, she could easily know the first but assume it had to do with them being related and not realize it'd apply to Harry as well.

Also, why does Harry then speculate that the axe, as an enchanted and runic weapon, is specifically what the Grendelkin's catch might be? She wounds it so it's clearly bleeding--meaning that she must have done a solid 14 shifts of damage if it wasn't a catch to it. So either she rolled as high as she possibly could while the Grendelkin rolled low, or it did indeed have an effect on its own Toughness power. And, again, the axe used there was not the same axe as in Even Hand.

The axe might easily be it's Catch. That doesn't mean it's mechanically magical or an Enchanted Item, though, just that she prepped it properly to be the Grendelkin's Catch.

They recover that quickly after treatment. Remember that Harry first finds her while she's still treating herself, and getting her out of the house only aggravates her injury--she probably didn't start healing at all until she got to the Carpenters and had her wound sealed up. By the next day or so, she's on her feet. Remember that a "scene" is a fluid thing--it could mean an hour, but it could also mean the next day.

Uh...Inhuman or better Recovery definitionally needs no such treatment to begin healing, which throws all that out the damn window, timeline-wise. But maybe I'll throw that in as her Catch and up her back to Supernatural. That would make some sense, I suppose...

Where are you getting this from? We don't really see anything regenerating right in the middle of a fight like that, short of the Uber Ghouls, which are noted as being an exception for being able to do that, and the White King, who's also supposed to be somewhat above and beyond normal.

We see Ghouls do it occasionally (on the rare occasions Harry doesn't kill them outright, see the boat fight in White Night for examples)...and they're the only Supernatural Recovery baddies we run into regularly. Which is the same level of Recovery the White King is listed with, btw.

Again, we only ever see Gard get wounded in such ways that she needs some kind of outside treatment--a broken arm with the bone sticking out, and her intestines spilling out, neither of which can really just regenerate.

Which is why I'm considering adding that as her Catch, since, by the rules, no level of Recovery power needs that kind of thing.

I suggest you take another look at the Sponsored Magic list. I helped to write the current version of Rune Magic, which is still -4 and does account for the lack of Evocation.

I don't use homebrew stuff (other than relatively minimal amounts of my own) in this thread. Simpler and more generally usable that way, I think.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
And added the above-mentioned Catch, along with a couple other minor changes.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
When she's actually fighting? Yeah, she can feel it, but it doesn't seem to actually impair her. Damage impairs her (like an inability to use a broken arm effectively), but pain? Not so much. Again, see Even Hand for examples.
That could easily be reflected by her having the No Pain, No Gain stunt in addition to her extra mild consequence. I'm not sure how it works as Inhuman Toughness, which is more of a resistance to damage in the first place.

Quote
Very possible. I'm...not sure how this is a criticism (given it's a current, ie: post-Heorot build), but very possible.
I meant it as in that's why she didn't use those enchantments during Heorot--it was a different axe, with different enchantments.

Quote
Immune to her magic and immune to Harry's are different things, she could easily know the first but assume it had to do with them being related and not realize it'd apply to Harry as well.
Eh. Harry speculates that it's the exact opposite, I'm more inclined to believe him. If Gard thought it was immune to any magic, again, I think that's something she would have mentioned to Harry when he convinces her to tell him what's going on.

Quote
Uh...Inhuman or better Recovery definitionally needs no such treatment to begin healing, which throws all that out the damn window, timeline-wise. But maybe I'll throw that in as her Catch and up her back to Supernatural. That would make some sense, I suppose...
I'll have to check the rulebook again--but I'm inclined to say that the wounds aren't going to heal if they're not able to heal. A bone sticking out of skin has to be set right; intestines aren't going to pull themselves back in. That only makes sense.

Quote
We see Ghouls do it occasionally (on the rare occasions Harry doesn't kill them outright, see the boat fight in White Night for examples)...and they're the only Supernatural Recovery baddies we run into regularly. Which is the same level of Recovery the White King is listed with, btw.
Ghouls are, again, typically seen as exceptional in how they can heal, or at least that's how I read it. I'll give you the White King, though there are ways I've come up with that his feeding dependency and emotion eating let him dodge or tank those attacks and the healing was just flavor.

Quote
I don't use homebrew stuff (other than relatively minimal amounts of my own) in this thread. Simpler and more generally usable that way, I think.
Chopping two refresh off of a canon power isn't "minimal." There's no write-up for Rune Magic, so you can't really say that evocation has any part in why it's priced that way, because you don't know why it's priced that way.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
That could easily be reflected by her having the No Pain, No Gain stunt in addition to her extra mild consequence. I'm not sure how it works as Inhuman Toughness, which is more of a resistance to damage in the first place.

I think Inhuman Toughness is a better fit for what we see her do and survive.

I meant it as in that's why she didn't use those enchantments during Heorot--it was a different axe, with different enchantments.

Very possibly.

Eh. Harry speculates that it's the exact opposite, I'm more inclined to believe him. If Gard thought it was immune to any magic, again, I think that's something she would have mentioned to Harry when he convinces her to tell him what's going on.

It's possible she didn't know until she tried magic on it and failed, or that her axe was offensive magic and it worked. Or a lot of other things, it's not really that relevant to her capabilities, though, so probably not worth discussing.

I'll have to check the rulebook again--but I'm inclined to say that the wounds aren't going to heal if they're not able to heal. A bone sticking out of skin has to be set right; intestines aren't going to pull themselves back in. That only makes sense.

Most supernaturals can just pop the bone back in or pile the guts back in casually and heal fine, seems to be the theme. Her needing actual medical attention is an exception, not the rule, for those with impossible recovery speeds.

Ghouls are, again, typically seen as exceptional in how they can heal, or at least that's how I read it. I'll give you the White King, though there are ways I've come up with that his feeding dependency and emotion eating let him dodge or tank those attacks and the healing was just flavor.

They're considered exceptional because they have Supernatural Recovery. Most stuff has to make do with Inhuman.

Chopping two refresh off of a canon power isn't "minimal." There's no write-up for Rune Magic, so you can't really say that evocation has any part in why it's priced that way, because you don't know why it's priced that way.

It's bog-standard Sponsored Magic, man, with the same cost as every other kind, which all include Evocation. Assuming it doesn't include Evocation is the big deviation from the book. As is writing up a detailed version of it, since we have no idea how accurate that would be.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
I think Inhuman Toughness is a better fit for what we see her do and survive.
Eh, I disagree.

Quote
Most supernaturals can just pop the bone back in or pile the guts back in casually and heal fine, seems to be the theme. Her needing actual medical attention is an exception, not the rule, for those with impossible recovery speeds.

They're considered exceptional because they have Supernatural Recovery. Most stuff has to make do with Inhuman.
Most supernaturals we see aren't human--it's heavily implied that Ms. Gard is/was. I think that's what makes the difference, that she's a human who got these powers put on her, rather than being a creature that was born to them.

Quote
It's bog-standard Sponsored Magic, man, with the same cost as every other kind, which all include Evocation. Assuming it doesn't include Evocation is the big deviation from the book. As is writing up a detailed version of it, since we have no idea how accurate that would be.
How can you say it's "bog-standard" with the same considerations as all the others while when there is no write-up for it? How can you say what each refresh point accounts for when there is no write up for what each refresh point--or any of them--accounts for?

If the canon version of Rune Magic--whatever it is--is worth -4 refresh, how can you possibly say that you can chop off -2 refresh while keeping its capabilities the same? Does it then cost only -1 refresh if someone with Thaumaturgy takes it?
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
There is no such thing as canonical Rune Magic.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
There is no such thing as canonical Rune Magic.
You know what I mean. They priced it for Gard at -4, and would have had a reason to do that.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
I guess?

I'm not sure they put any thought into it, really. That's the default cost, so maybe they just wrote it down without thinking.

I was more addressing DMW's desire not to use homebrew. Even if he wants to stick with canonical Rune Magic, he can't because canonical Rune Magic is not a real thing.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Eh, I disagree.

*shrugs* Nothing I can do about that. I think it's an accurate portrayal of her demonstrated capabilities.

Most supernaturals we see aren't human--it's heavily implied that Ms. Gard is/was. I think that's what makes the difference, that she's a human who got these powers put on her, rather than being a creature that was born to them.

To some extent, this is totally true. But on another level, that's not a mechanical distinction that's ever made, so mechanics (like the Catch I added) are needed to reflect it.

How can you say it's "bog-standard" with the same considerations as all the others while when there is no write-up for it? How can you say what each refresh point accounts for when there is no write up for what each refresh point--or any of them--accounts for?

It's Sponsored Magic, which is a listed power, explicitly costing two Refresh each for versions of Channeling and Ritual. See p. 287. So we know exactly how it's costed, actually. We don't know details of the exact way that particular version works...but we know how it's priced, by all the Gods.

If the canon version of Rune Magic--whatever it is--is worth -4 refresh, how can you possibly say that you can chop off -2 refresh while keeping its capabilities the same?

I'm not keeping it's capabilities the same. By the writeup in the book, she can use Evocation, since there's no text talking about her being incapable of that, and that's a default part of the Sponsored Magic power. My version can do nothing of the sort. That's a difference of capability.

Does it then cost only -1 refresh if someone with Thaumaturgy takes it?

Presumably.

I'm not sure they put any thought into it, really. That's the default cost, so maybe they just wrote it down without thinking.

This. Basically. Bear in mind that the book's stats were pre-Even Hand, too, so we'd had less chance to prove she can't do Evocation.

I was more addressing DMW's desire not to use homebrew. Even if he wants to stick with canonical Rune Magic, he can't because canonical Rune Magic is not a real thing.

True! But I consider assuming it's a Sponsored version of Thaumaturgy/Ritual alone a simpler and closer to canonical version than a -4 Refresh version that would necessitate a bunch of custom stuff as well to justify it costing more. I seriously considered skipping the Sponsored bit altogether and having it be just her version of Ritual or even Thaumaturgy, as there's little indication whether it is actually provided by Odin, or simply a form of magic he knows and can teach...but went with the Sponsored version for now because full Thaumaturgy seemed a bit broad, and Ritual a bit narrow. I may yet change that decision.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
I'm going to refuse to accept "they just didn't think about it or care" as an answer for, well, anything in either book. You don't go to the trouble of creating something that's clearly had a lot of thought and time and effort put into it to emulate the feel and mechanics of a series and then--when it comes time to stat out the series' main and signature characters--just throw up your hands and just say, "Screw it, just throw any old thing on there."

So please, come up with another explanation for disregarding what's in the books (while saying you don't use homebrew) beyond what amounts to, "I know the game and the mechanics better than the people who wrote it." If they listed Rune Magic as -4, that means if you're following the book, then the power is -4 refresh.

The RPG wasn't written by a bunch of clueless people who don't know or care about the series, so please stop trying to use "they just didn't care" as justification.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
I'm not saying they didn't care. But there's plenty of stuff in both YS and OW that isn't fully thought-out. So when something seems weird, the most plausible explanation is that it's an oversight.

PS: There's a Sponsored Ritual Power on the list. I think it'd be appropriate here.


Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
@Mr. Death: I have nothing but respect and admiration for the folks at Evil Hat. They did a phenomenal job on the DFRPG. No, really, absolute phenomenal, and Fred knows Jim personally, so they even had some input from him officially and directly.

All that all said, if I'm not allowed to think I can stat out characters better than them...about 70% of this thread stops having a point. It's sorta the point of the thread, y'know? Statting out characters in what I believe is a more accurate fashion is basically this thread's mission statement.

And...I'm gonna guess you weren't around for the Early Bird PDFs and the editing that fans did at the time. I was, hell, I was one of the people doing it. The fact that the folks at Evil Hat are good people, amazingly skilled game designers, and pretty good at statting out characters in no way makes them infallible. I'll link you to the thread where this was done...and I suggest reading it if you think they don't make mistakes. As an example (particularly relevant to this discussion), prior to me pointing it out as an issue, Sigrun lacked the Drive skill.

But what we're discussing wasn't even a mistake per se. It was an assumption that wasn't disproved at the time, IMO, but has been somewhat more definitively since (ie: that she couldn't do Evocation). So changes are needed.

@Sanctaphrax: That's pretty much what's already there. I'm not seeing the point in a name change.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
It's generally better to refer to a Power that actually exists. Sponsored Ritual (Runes) actually exists, and Sponsored Magic: Runes [-2] does not.

Unless you wrote it up somewhere without me noticing. I do miss things sometimes.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
All that all said, if I'm not allowed to think I can stat out characters better than them...about 70% of this thread stops having a point. It's sorta the point of the thread, y'know? Statting out characters in what I believe is a more accurate fashion is basically this thread's mission statement.
I was under the impression that this thread was about updating the characters more than changing them outright.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
I was under the impression that this thread was about updating the characters more than changing them outright.

To some degree, sure. Especially with Harry, Murphy, and Thomas. And that's why I went with only making it 70% useless if I'm somehow not allowed to do that. But really, I mean, look at the first six to ten posts, they include revisions on Marcone that I explicitly note are because I think they did him slightly wrong. Or look at the Denarian versions. We haven't seen any of them since Small Favor, so they obviously aren't updates. Ditto on Maeve when I statted her, or Carlos Ramirez (who's in the first ten posts) even now.

And I'm legitimately curious why you're not responding to the rest of that post.