Spell Maneuvers

[eberg]

I'm a bit confused about spell maneuvers. Are they fragile or sticky depending on shifts like regular combat maneuvers or do you need to assign shifts to duration? Does this depend on whether or not they are scene aspects or personal?

Also, just curious as to when character sheets will be up for download.

--
Eric Christian Berg
(who is frantically working on his DFRPG game for UBcon in two weeks)

[iago]

They're like any maneuver in terms of their outcome. Duration doesn't really play into it. (If you want to land a truly lasting aspect on a foe, you go for stress and consequences.)

Character sheets will go up for download sometime soon, but I don't have a firm date.

[eberg]

Thank you for the quick reply, kind sir. This game might as well have been written to my specific specs for an RPG. I am overjoyed with it.

[Archmage_Cowl]

I am overjoyed with it.

I will second that 

[Deadmanwalking]

I will second that 

And I'll third it sight unseen, just from the Nevermore chapter, Harry's sheet, and Rick Neal's Q&A. It looks awesome. 

[Tsunami]

I've got another question about maneuvers as spells. Specifically about when they are done as rote spells.

Attacks still need discipline rolls to determine accuracy, do maneuvers need that as well?

So lets say a +6 maneuver as an earth evocation, adding the aspect "CAUGHT IN ROCK"
As a rote it always succeeds.

Does the defender defend against the +6? Or do i still need to roll discipline and have the defender try to beat the result of that roll?

[Rel Fexive]

I would imagine they still need the manoeuvre - sorry, maneuver - placing roll, yes.

[Llayne]

I am overjoyed with it.

I'd be happier if it came with a few players when it get's shipped to my house (preferably ones that won't eat me out of house and home) but other than that I'm VERY impressed with it.

[TheMouse]

I'd be happier if it came with a few players when it get's shipped to my house (preferably ones that won't eat me out of house and home) but other than that I'm VERY impressed with it.

Make your own players.

A license like Dresden is the perfect prompt to go out and turn non-gamers into gamers. Find a couple of friends who like the books. Mention to them that you've picked up this cool new game set in the same world as the books. Ask if they're interested. Offer to do all the set up work so that they just have to play.

Step 3 -- Profit.

Seriously. This is an opportunity. You have the chance to make new gamers who don't have years of habits built up. New players who are into the setting are often some of the most amazing players you can find; they're much more concerned with having fun than making the best decision.

Just don't overwhelm them. Describe what skills do. Describe what Aspects and fate points are about, but don't be concerned with the details unless they ask. Explain roughly what the stunts and supernatural powers on their (premade) characters do. Then go. It's really all you need to do. You'll find situations like the following to describe how more mechanics work:

GM: The gang member is running for the door, the letter in his hand!

New player: Crap! Um, how can I stop him?

GM: Well, how would your guy stop a thug from running out the door?

Player: Tackle him?

GM: Okay. We call that a Block action. Don't worry about how it works. Roll Fists to tackle him and stop him from getting away...

[Papa Gruff]

I've got another question about maneuvers as spells. Specifically about when they are done as rote spells.

Attacks still need discipline rolls to determine accuracy, do maneuvers need that as well?

So lets say a +6 maneuver as an earth evocation, adding the aspect "CAUGHT IN ROCK"
As a rote it always succeeds.

Does the defender defend against the +6? Or do i still need to roll discipline and have the defender try to beat the result of that roll?

um ... can we please get back to discussing this line of questions in this thread? I'm realy interestet in understanding this as I am a little confused about it too...

I'd say, he has to defend against the +6 as this is the the strength of the rote maneuver...

[Falar]

Roll Discipline, Defend against Discipline with Athletics. If miss, nothing happens to the Defender. If hit, Defender gets the full maneuver. I think.

I really think maneuver oriented rotes are a lot more powerful because you need shifts to get them done more so.

[paul_Harkonen]

By Default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher than Good (+3), that skill determines the required number of shifts.

Your Story, pg 252

In terms of defending against rotes, what this says to me is that you can either roll your skill against the Discipline roll (trying to avoid being hit) or (if I were GMing) against the shifts of power used (trying to overcome the spell). You wouldn't be able to use both.

These two might be two separate skills, depending on the context.  Also, note that if the shifts of power of the spell aren't higher than your base skill you can be assumed to "take a zero" (to borrow a phrase from a different system) on your skill roll to overcome it.

[Tsunami]

I've reread the rote spell section, and right now it seems to me like there would need to be a roll.

Code: [Select]

You still need to make a Discipline roll to target the spell, however; there’s just no chance of accidental failure.
So basically

I use a +6 rote
I roll discipline, no matter my roll, the spell goes off.

Now, several possibilities:
A) the target gets to "dodge" the maneuver with an appropriate skill, basically saying that it needs to defend against the discipline roll. If that fails the maneuver hits with full force, and the effect is determined by comparing full maneuver shifts to the defense roll.
B) basically the same as above, but the discipline roll limits the shifts that can be brought to effect, so if my discipline roll is +5 only 5 off my 6 shifts count when it comes to determine effect.

For completeness' sake:
C) target gets to dodge, AND failing that  gets to defend against the shifts of power <- I'd rule this one out. since it would mean two defence rolls against rotes where there would be only one against a normal spell.


Personally I'm in favour of Version A, since attacks basically work the same way. The discipline roll does not reduce the Weapon rating of the spell, so IF it its, it hits with full force.

[arentol]

They're like any maneuver in terms of their outcome. Duration doesn't really play into it. (If you want to land a truly lasting aspect on a foe, you go for stress and consequences.)

In the spell maneuver section in the book it says you have to pay additional shifts to make the effect persistent at the rate of 1 shift per exchange.

So I am still confused about how it works since the book is very specific that duration does play into it.

However, this is how I think it is intended, judge each case independently:

Set fire to scene = Persistent, does not need additional shifts for persistence. Can not be removed unless a source of water, fire extinguishers, or similar, are nearby and someone makes a maneuver to put it out.
Trap someone with a real rope = Persistent, does not need additional shifts for persistence. Target can attempt to remove the aspect with a maneuver of their own. (or would this be a block?)
Trap someone with 'Bonds of magical force" = Non-persistent, needs shifts dedicated to persistence at the price of 1 shift = 1 exchange, to have it last beyond the start of the casters next turn. Target can attempt to remove the aspect with a maneuver of their own.

[Tsunami]

[...]
Trap someone with 'Bonds of magical force" = Non-persistent, needs shifts dedicated to persistence at the price of 1 shift = 1 exchange, to have it last beyond the start of the casters next turn. Target can attempt to remove the aspect with a maneuver of their own.

I've been thinking about that as well. The problem is, that same thing, "Bonds of magical force", is used in the "Entanglement" example evocation. And from all I can tell, it uses the sticky aspect rules. So no shifts to duration conversion there.