Game Balance and the Laws

[iago]

Ah, I didn't realize that you were using roll up type stress. I had figured from comments made about the faster conflicts rules for SotC that y'all were using a stress as HP type model.

Faster conflict rules for SOTC involve shorter stress tracks and -2/-4/-6 consequences, NOT necessarily HP style stress tracks.

[Rechan]

So, what's the -2/-4/-6 mean?

I've read SotC, so I understand "Fill up stress boxes, when something goes above the stress boxes, consequence, and if that happens 3 times, yer out". But what does the -2/-4/-6 mean? Do you actually get penalties when you're wounded or something (like WoD)?

Also, Fred. When you talk about being "Taken Out", and that the person who hits you gets to define your defeat, this means that it's wholly possible to shoot a mortal in the face with a Gout of Fire and not kill them. Because you can say "He doesn't die" when you take him out, you can conceivably throw around all the force you want, and just never opt to kill. Right?

[TheMouse]

2/4/6 means that you reduce incoming stress by an amount corresponding to the Consequences you take. Say someone hits you for 3 stress and that's enough to take you out. You take a Minor Consequence, which reduces that by 2, to 1. Now you fill the 1 stress box, have a Mild Consequence, and you're still in the fight.

Moderate ones reduce by 4, Serious by 6.

You do not get penalties. The minuses are how much the Consequence reduces incoming stress and nothing more.

[iago]

Also, Fred. When you talk about being "Taken Out", and that the person who hits you gets to define your defeat, this means that it's wholly possible to shoot a mortal in the face with a Gout of Fire and not kill them. Because you can say "He doesn't die" when you take him out, you can conceivably throw around all the force you want, and just never opt to kill. Right?

Sure. But there's no problem there, as far as the system goes. The GM could compel you in that moment to kill instead of maim.  The opponent could concede the fight -- by dying.  (Concession is how the victim can end the fight early, defining how HE exits the fight. That includes saying 'Here, I die.')  There's a lot in the toolbox here, and in Fate, we prefer to make death a discussion instead of an act of capricious randomness.

[ClarkValentine]

You do not get penalties. The minuses are how much the Consequence reduces incoming stress and nothing more.

No direct penalties, but those Consequences are expressed as temporary Aspects that can be tagged by your opponents or compelled by the GM. For example, the consequence Broken Arm might not give you any direct penalties, but if you try to wrestle the evil sorcerer's staff away from him, he's probably going to tag that Broken Arm to give himself a bonus to his roll.

[traeki]

You do not get penalties. The minuses are how much the Consequence reduces incoming stress and nothing more.

I don't think anybody has explicitly stated yet: The worse the consequence is, the harder it is to heal.  So a minor consequence might be "winded" which goes away as soon as you have a chance to...well...take a breather.  But a more serious consequence would be "bullet wound in the shoulder" and in both system and fluff terms that's going to take longer to heal, obviously.  So you could spend multiple sessions running around with an extra taggable, assessable, compellable aspect of weakness.  Not to mention you remain down a consequence, so you're that much closer to being Taken Out.  I'm not sure how the different levels are characterized in DFRPG, but in SotC the really bad consequence (-8) is essentially permanent.  When you "heal" it, you get the consequence slot back, but the aspect itself just replaces one of the 10 original aspects of your character.  Maybe your girlfriend leaves you because of the horrible disfigurement, I dunno.

[Rechan]

2/4/6 means that you reduce incoming stress by an amount corresponding to the Consequences you take. Say someone hits you for 3 stress and that's enough to take you out. You take a Minor Consequence, which reduces that by 2, to 1. Now you fill the 1 stress box, have a Mild Consequence, and you're still in the fight.

I thought you coudln't be taken out until you've had all 3 consequences filled. So, how does that come into play?

Or, that when you GET a consequence, it reduces the stress? (I.e. You have 2 empty stress boxes. You get hit for 3 stress: so you take a Mild consequence, and fill in 1 stress box?)

Because if that's the case, that you have 2 stress boxes, you have a total of "5 stress" (you fill 2 stress boxes, then the next three hits and you're done", right?

[TheMouse]

No direct penalties, but those Consequences are expressed as temporary Aspects that can be tagged by your opponents or compelled by the GM.

I don't consider those to be penalties. Consequences add ways for you to gain and spend FPs. This consideration coloured my response.

[Rechan]

Sure. But there's no problem there, as far as the system goes. The GM could compel you in that moment to kill instead of maim.  The opponent could concede the fight -- by dying.  (Concession is how the victim can end the fight early, defining how HE exits the fight. That includes saying 'Here, I die.')  There's a lot in the toolbox here, and in Fate, we prefer to make death a discussion instead of an act of capricious randomness.

True, but then concessions have to be accepted. I think?

Which is nice, that it basically lets the player DECIDE of he's going to kill the mortal or not (and gives at least three opportunities: Concession, Compel, and Taken Out Decision). So if you REALLY don't want to break that law, you don't have to. It also avoids accidental death (Whoops, that bystander gets thrown off the roof by your wind spell. Sorry, Wardens coming to get you). Accidental death was my biggest concern about playing with the Laws.

[TheMouse]

I thought you coudln't be taken out until you've had all 3 consequences filled. So, how does that come into play?

Or, that when you GET a consequence, it reduces the stress? (I.e. You have 2 empty stress boxes. You get hit for 3 stress: so you take a Mild consequence, and fill in 1 stress box?)

Because if that's the case, that you have 2 stress boxes, you have a total of "5 stress" (you fill 2 stress boxes, then the next three hits and you're done", right?

As written in SotC, you need to fill your stress track and then take three Consequences in order to be taken out. That takes forever.

As I understand the incarnation in DFRPG, you are taken out if your stress track fills. Taking Consequences reduces incoming stress. You may choose to allow a hit to take you out without taking any Consequences at all, or you may take them until you've taken your cap of three.

Let's say you have no stress. Someone hits you for 3. Your track is only 2, and you don't want to be taken out. So you take a Mild Consequence and reduce incoming by 2, to 1; you then fill in the first box of your track. Someone hits you again for 3. You no longer have a Mild Consequence, only a Moderate one. You use it to reduce incoming by 4, to a minimum of 0, which you do; your stress track still has 1 check in it. Then someone hits you for 2 more stress; you've only got your Severe Consequence left, so you use that to lower incoming to zero, leaving you as you were before. Someone hits you again for 3, and you're taken out.

There are lots of ways to combine this, since you can use multiple Consequences at once. Some huge troll tries to smash your soft little head with a fire hydrant and generates 9 incoming stress on your untouched stress track of 2. So you spend your Severe and Mild Consequences to reduce that to 1, checking off your first box. A repeat performance is more than adequate to take you out with the second shot.

[Rechan]

Is... is that correct Fred?!

<Expletive!>

[Rechan]

I don't think anybody has explicitly stated yet: The worse the consequence is, the harder it is to heal.  So a minor consequence might be "winded" which goes away as soon as you have a chance to...well...take a breather.  But a more serious consequence would be "bullet wound in the shoulder" and in both system and fluff terms that's going to take longer to heal, obviously.  So you could spend multiple sessions running around with an extra taggable, assessable, compellable aspect of weakness.

So the SotC rule that if you have a back-to-back session (Hence, no down time to heal up) at all, a consequence doesn't downgrade in DFRPG?  

Maybe your girlfriend leaves you because of the horrible disfigurement, I dunno.

So would Harry's hand constitute a -8 consequence? Even though he seems to be healing just fine after (what, five books?). I would think he wouldn't have the Aspect any longer.

[iago]

Is... is that correct Fred?!

<Expletive!>

Mouse is mostly right.  There's just not a "cap of three" per se. You have slots of consequences; everyone starts out with one -2 slot, one -4 slot, one -6 slot. (And technically a -8 slot as well, but that has some special rules attached to it.) You might gain an additional mild consequence slot or two, often restricted to applicability only in particular kind of conflict (physical, mental, social), through various other means.

But otherwise, yeah.

It works significantly better than in SOTC, and it's let us tune things to the point where fights feel extra dangerous. As they should.

[ClarkValentine]

I don't consider those to be penalties. Consequences add ways for you to gain and spend FPs.

Oh, of course. My point was that those consequences had mechanical effects, but not of the "apply this modifier every time you roll dice" variety.

[iago]

So the SotC rule that if you have a back-to-back session (Hence, no down time to heal up) at all, a consequence doesn't downgrade in DFRPG?  

Each consequence heals on its own timeframe in the DFRPG.  They don't "downgrade" to one another or anything like that. From the text:

Mild consequences cancel out 2 stress. They last for one scene after recovery starts. (Examples: Bruised Hand, Nasty Shiner, Winded, Flustered, Distracted.)

Moderate consequences cancel out 4 stress. They last until the end of the next session after recovery starts. Think of things that are bad enough to make you say, “Man, you really should go take care of that/get some rest.” (Examples: Belly Slash, Bad First Degree Burn, Twisted Ankle, Exhausted, Drunk.)

Severe consequences cancel out 6 stress. They last for the next scenario (or two to three sessions, whichever is longer) after recovery starts. Think of things that are bad enough to make you say, “Man, you really need to go to the ER/get serious help.” (Examples: Broken Leg, Bad Second-Degree Burn, Crippling Shame, Trauma-Induced Phobia.)

So there you go.

So would Harry's hand constitute a -8 consequence? Even though he seems to be healing just fine after (what, five books?). I would think he wouldn't have the Aspect any longer.

Extreme consequences (-8's) don't heal, per se. And when you take one, it changes one of your core aspects.  You can recover the ability to use a -8 consequence again, but the change to your aspects remains for a long time, possibly forever.