Author Topic: Where to start?  (Read 4008 times)

Offline Nicodemus Archleone

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Where to start?
« on: February 01, 2010, 04:11:41 PM »
Hi Butcher fans:)

Okay so I read through the first 20 pages in authors craft and it seems this question has not been asked.
Where to start?
Do you start with a character and try to figure out what this person is about, what he does, where he lives and then what happens to him/her?
Plot idear? what is this about, what is to happen to the character, start middle, end thread?
Do you start figuring out what do I want to tell? morale and what not. I guess itīs the plot but I want to hear the opinon. Is it somewhere intirely different? I am not sure if itīs Plot or Character, but as I said, I guess itīs plot. What do you say?
Often when I write I find my idear originate from another film or book, this i realise after a bit of time so I have startet thinking plot characters and such.
As my Writers group has nearly started, and a deadline is sure to come up and be, in term of writing, soon, I thought I wanted to seek your wisdom on these questions.
This group is to activate and keep our creativity going and is not aiming at all at publicating and release our work to the public.
As such I thought, maybe I should try to write DF fanfic, as far as I know Fanfic is okay by the group. But then again, that I think just means I want to read DF again or read the new changes rather than creating something in the universe it self. For fear of not capturing Harryīs being correctly and makeing it be him. I love the series, itīs the best in a long long time, as such Iīd like to write fiction with Harry on the other hand I am afraid to write something and not be able to perform as Harry, Bob, Murph, Michael or other of our beloved characters. The same goes to some extend with Codex Alera. While I donīt hold it as dear as I does with the DF I still am afraid of trying to capture for instance Kitai or Taviīs brilliant tactics, I donīt think I can get into Kitaiīs unique mind and her attitude.
I mentioned that I can recognize idears from books and movies in my works when I work, this is becourse I am still a beginner i guess, and yes I am a beginner, if i think of an idear and think it is mine and is original I Hate it, I Hate it so much, when I discover it was an idear i picked up, from a book or movie, at a later point and things have developed I step back and see, hey Iīve seen this before in some form or another.This I find horrible when it is my own work and itīs supposed to be original, but if i start my story declaring I am in Fanfiction mode I have no problem being in another universe where it is not originally mine, and I just tweak things with my own plotline.
At this point as I am sure you have figured out, I donīt know what to do, where to start, the only thing i "know" is if my work is to be purely original (not going down the Fanfiction road of either DF or CA) that my genre is to be either Horror or Fantasy not even here I can make up my mind, as some of my idears fit Horror while others does the Fantasy genre. And unfortunately they come in, in a mix, and I only unfortunately seem to get idears if i think about now I want an idear, is there something wrong with me for this? that, if I am allowed to use a writer term, my muse will only visit when called upon.
I hope you can help me folks.
My deadlines in the Writers group is giving me stress and makes me fear I cannot come up with anything original in time, on the other hand if i donīt keep my mind on writing it seems I donīt get anything to write.
Do your muse submit idears to you at random? or like mine only when provoked to do something?
Or am I fooling myself in thinking I have muse, and really I canīt get idears to write at all and should drop this idear?
Hearing about Jimīs road to success and the arrival of DF and the Codex one just have to keep going and never give up, if one want to improve, and also from another writer I have herd something simmilar, I guess this means donīt give up hehe.
Anyway can you help me on my questions?
thanks in advance:D

Regards

Nicodemus Archlone
 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 04:29:35 PM by Nicodemus Archleone »

Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 08:13:25 PM »
I doubt you will find many writers who always start in exactly the same way.

The best is to keep your butterfly net in hand, ready to snatch what comes your way.  This could be a place, a character, a situation, a theme, or as some here have reported--a great ending!  LOL

Another author said that he takes that initial kernal from those above and then researches it until he finds 20 too cool not to use ideas.

If you are starting raw from scratch there are several exercises that might help, but understand that coming in with a premise to discuss isn't a bad first meeting idea.  Or a scratched out outline.  Other writers can help you refine it.  I will never write another long work without a premise (a great hook, a great snappy original premise) that you will use to market it.  If you don't have that, then it's a trial to come up with one later.

Others chirp in with starting exercises?
1. Sit with a blank sheet of paper and a timer.  Write as many words as possible that start with M or W or A whatever.  After three minutes you will have wiped your every day life from your mind and ready to write.  Pick some of the words and start writing.
2. Visit an art museum, or search the internet for paintings--contemporary, classic, whatever.  Find one (don't take hours doing this) and start writing about an item in the painting.  The horse in the corner, the barn without a door, the road that leads nowhere. 
3. Read until you get to a spot that goes--ahh!  Then walk out of the written word and begin fresh with where the idea you had takes you. 
4.  Watch a really bad B movie.  I mean really really bad.  Figure out where it went wrong and fix it.  Write.
5.  Take a bunch of slips of paper and write verbs, nouns, adjectives, smells, emotions.  Draw randomly and write.
6.  Play Salvadore Dali... pick an item near your desk and stick it somewhere unusual and Write.  (Wait, I meant that mentally!)

Get the key thing here?  Write.  After five pages you may find your novel.  After 20 pages--it might be time for a beer.  LOL

Others with formal training can rattle off a ton of these.  They'll post 'em. 

Best wishes!


Ah and a word of advice.  Crits for the other writers will teach you a ton.  Never short a crit.  Never sweeten a crit.  Never skip a crit or they won't crit yours.  In your writing group you will find half or more of your time will be taken up in reading others work.  I repeat my Nevers above.   Then write your pages. 

Also on receiving your crits from others.  Listen, don't talk and if they run out of things to say then question them.  You're there to get their best opinions.  They may be hiding them to go gentle.  Forget gentle.  My best crit session ever was with a small group of genre writers and Michael A Stackpole.  Most of the comments were bland (exluding Stackpole of course!) and I worried how I was going to get what I wanted out of them.  I made sure I was sprawled on the floor.  (yeah, body language/interpersonal communication was my major in college.)  That gave them a feeling of control and wow--did I get them going and I wasn't defending.  I was writing as fast as I could.  Later someone came up to me.  They were afraid I had been offended!  I had to let the sweetheart in on my secret.  I suspect next writer's workshop, she'll use the same trick.

Finally, if you get the same feedback from 4 or 5 readers--fix it.  If it's one - don't sweat it.  Be prepared that sometimes your crits will be pointing out symptoms and they don't realize it.  You are the writer, you figure out what's a symptom and what was the real problem and fix it!

Listen, listen, listen. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 08:25:29 PM by meg_evonne »
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Offline Nicodemus Archleone

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 08:22:38 PM »
Thanks Meg:) be open to criticism good idear:) hehe, and Iīll try to draw in idears from what you mentioned, itīs a form of writing what you are talking about I am not fammiliar with. Can you answer or opinonate on the "itīs not my idear part"

I have a tendency to find idears which I at first think is good, then go, ohh somebody else gave me that idear, (that is it has it origin in somewhere other than my mind) some movie or book and such, and I had just aparently tweaked it enough in my mind to make me belive it was my own idear, when I realise this I shoot down my idear and im left again empty minded, how do you avoid this?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 08:37:40 PM by Nicodemus Archleone »

Offline Kali

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 08:46:03 PM »
I admire meg's fortitude.  I lack it, and therefore I must say it's i-d-e-a, not i-d-e-a-r which might be how you're pronouncing it.  A lot of people where I live (Virginia) do say "idear" but there is no "r" on the end.  I dunno why that one in particular I had to point out, but I did.

But on to the real comments...

So what if you're writing something and you realize that it's based on something else?  Write for the fun of it, for the hell of it.  It's still practice in writing; it may not be what gets you published, but it will help make you better and stronger.  Write what you love, write the cool ideas in your head and heart and screw what anyone else would say.  So what if your characters are all Mary Sues and your plots are a mish-mash of Star Wars Meets Twilight?  Write anyway.  Tell yourself you'll stick it in a drawer and never show it to anyone, but this is just for you.

And let's face it, no idea is new.  Name a movie, I can tell you other stories that use the same basic plot and/or theme.  Even the Bible is largely a re-tread of older tales.  What matters is HOW you tell the story, with your characters and their emotions and their lives and their particular quirks.  Fifty gajillion romance novels published every year have the same setup:  Boy meets girl, boy and girl hate each other, boy and girl overcome problem, boy and girl fall in love.  People still sell them, editors still buy them, the public eats them up, because the plot simply doesn't matter much.

That's right, I said it.  Do your worst.

The plot doesn't matter much.  The plot is the broad strokes, it's the overview.  And they've all been done.

It's like a football game.  You know largely what will happen.  For three downs, the offense will either pass or run the ball.  On the fourth down, they'll punt (unless it's fourth-and-inches and you're Bill Belichick, but I digress).  Some of the defense will try to stop the players from moving the ball, some will try and take down the quarterback.  Back and forth, back and forth, until time's up and then whoever has the most points wins the game.  Same thing every Monday night during the season, twice on Sunday, sometimes even on Thursday.  And yet, millions watch.  Why?  If we just wanted to know what happened, we'd all read the scoreboards at the end and no one would go.

But it's HOW these things happen that people want to see.  The specifics.  Even if the general idea is the same over and over, the specifics, the nitty-gritty details are fascinating. Will they pass or run, which play will they pick, will someone go offsides, will Brett Favre lose the ability to count at a key moment in the game, will someone's leg snap on 3rd-and-goal?

Same thing with stories.  The broad strokes are repeated from book to book to book.  The hero is a poor boy who doesn't know he's really a prince, but rises to greatness during an epic quest to save his people from an overwhelming threat.  Seen it.  Star Wars, Alera, Prince Valentine, Assassin's Apprentice...  But what makes these things fascinating is HOW everything came about.  That's why you read. 

So screw the plot.  Let it be derivative.  Don't sweat the big stuff.  Sweat the small stuff.  Sweat the details. That's what'll make your story spectacular, and make it worth reading.

...

Hey, I ranted. 
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Offline Nicodemus Archleone

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 08:55:47 PM »
Thanks Kali:) that was encouring, I think Iīll pick up something I felt i got from another story and pick it up again, tweak it, make it my own. I hope I can find it or pick it out of my mind again and continue something that last time around never got started:)

Offline meg_evonne

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2010, 02:38:41 AM »
pick a Shakespeare plot.  He stole them all anyway.  :-) 
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Offline Der Sturmbrecher

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 04:18:21 AM »
Quote
Where to start?


It depends on what you're comfortable with, and whatever urge(s) or idea(s) you already have. Also, if you have good ideas which won't really work together, don't be afraid to do multiple pieces. At the same time, probably not a good idea, so work with whichever one just feels more urgent, more "spicy".

Take me for instance. I've had, for awhile now, I decent fantasy plot worked out in my head, enough for a few novels in material. I have often (but not often enough) sat down to write plans for this thing, only to finish a few preliminary details and shove the bulk under a rock for later. I still plan to write it, but I keep having something else come up instead: a short story series about Death.

For the former fantasy series, I knew that I liked fantasy, and creating whole worlds from scratch, so I started there. I've used different magic systems, main characters, and plots in my head, but the world itself has stayed mostly the same. I jsut built it from what I liked, but I have to keep working.

The short stories , on the other hand, were much more spur of the moment, make it up as you go. If I get any of them published online, I'll try to send a link here, hopefully you won't hate 'em. The lowdown with these is that I challanged my Mom and Dad to a writing "contest," for lack of a better word. We both wanted to write, but neither was really going to. So I said "I'll write if you will." Thus began an installment of stories. (a thought just flew through my head of makiing a story about writing these stories). I had no idea really where to start, but then the Death concept just came to me, so I sat down, and started writing what felt good.

That's another thing: feeling good with it. I scrapped a lot of good ideas with my fantasy series because at first I liked them, but afterwords I hated them. This seems to happen to everybody, it's inevitable. Some ideas stay fresh in your mind and just don't fade, but others will. There isn't really a good way to tell if an idea will do that to you at the time you think of it, so the best thing to do is just write it while it's still good. If it's down on paper (or .doc), you're less likely to hate it later than if you haven't written it yet.

Originality. All stories are original (unless you have really really really REALLY bad luck and happen to think of exactly the same plot, characters, setting, and devices that another person does), but anymore, they all have overlapping elements and themes. If you're going to write, this is inevitable. The solution: write it your way. Suppose you want to write a book about Orcs and Elves fighting each other. Deja vu...unless you write it in such a way that you like and think of. Take Jim Butcher for example, either series. In DF, you have the magical hero who fights the baddies, meets girls, allies, and ahs his own personal demons to deal with. Again, deja vu. Then along comes the right and honorable Jim Butcher, and suddenly, Harry Dresden is born! From what I understand, the Dresden Files weren't a major project for him either, until they proved so popular and good. Possibly, the story you hate or don't think much of is your best work. For that, you need peer review.


Offline Abeille

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 02:06:03 PM »
Rotrich really is a talented writer, in my opinion anyway. His Death short story is GREAT and I have seen at least most of the notes (if not all) for the fantasy story, and it is very promising. I was never into writing, but he helped me and now I have an idea for a book! Also, I was in that writing 'contest' :P It was when I wrote my first story I do not completely despise.

Offline Nicodemus Archleone

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 01:16:28 PM »
Thanks Rotrich:)
Iīve got a question again for you (all of you), as I have decided to go with a horror idear which I think I can make spur into something good, when I sit and think about evolving it I can do it aparently but it dosenīt come out of the blue.
Anyway my question is setting or rather location.
Do I need to use cities, areas i know good and well that be here in Denmark. Or is it acceptable to go, "I have writers freedom and wants to be in NY, in the US, even though iīve only been there once and if an american read this he can shoot bullet holes in this story with an atomic bomb if he wants".

Offline Kali

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 02:47:59 PM »
Do I need to use cities, areas i know good and well that be here in Denmark. Or is it acceptable to go, "I have writers freedom and wants to be in NY, in the US, even though iīve only been there once and if an american read this he can shoot bullet holes in this story with an atomic bomb if he wants".

Earlier on this board, I wrote about how I approach things when I want to use a city I don't know much about.  Here's what I said, maybe it'll help give you some ideas:

Quote from: BobForPresident on October 05, 2009, 04:35:45 PM
Not every street has to have a specific name as long as you create a believable flavor for the city. For example, the world Harry Dresden inhabits "feels" like Chicago. Butcher seems to have picked just a few key ingredients of Chicago life: bars, extremely cold winters, towering buildings downtown, and has expanded on those aspects of Dresden's Chicago (that's the key, btw. It's Dresden's Chicago, not Chicago, Illinois).

This is, I think, essential and needs repeating and emphasizing.

Pick a city you think is interesting, any city.  Do some research, yes, but what your initial research should be aimed toward is the creation of a list.  List a few specific landmarks, write bullet-point words about the feel of the city.  If it's a large city, add a few neighborhoods and specific one- or two-word descriptions of each.

Say you wanted to use Washington DC as an example.  Your list might look like this:

LANDMARKS
- Washington Monument & "The Mall"
- Capitol building
- Smithsonian Museums
- Metro railway
- cherry trees, springtime Cherry Blossom festival
MISCELLANY
- Politics
- Business suits + extreme poverty
- Tourists
- Cocentric circular design
- Big football town
NEIGHBORHOODS
- Northwest = affluence, gentility, Jewish bakeries
- Northeast = gentrifying, arty, Union Station
- Southeast = crime, poverty, vandals, new ballpark
- Capitol Hill = Bluetooth & briefcase crowd

And that would be enough to get you started.  As you wrote, you might want to look up a specific restaurant or have a map handy to pick up a street name here and there, but you wouldn't need to have a specific reference every single page or even every single chapter. 


To clarify how I use this sort of list, let's say I have a scene where the characters are driving to a place for a meeting with a critical informant.  I might glance at my list and decide to set the meeting in Northwest DC.  So the sentence referencing it might read:

"I didn't mind driving to the meeting; Northwest DC was relatively safe even in the pre-dawn early hours, safe as any big city ever was.  We parked in front of a Jewish bakery, and the smell of warm yeast and sugar made my stomach growl."
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Offline Der Sturmbrecher

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2010, 07:07:06 PM »
Kali makes a good point about the Chicago in DF.

Quote
Earlier on this board, I wrote about how I approach things when I want to use a city I don't know much about.  Here's what I said, maybe it'll help give you some ideas:


Quote from: BobForPresident on October 05, 2009, 04:35:45 PM
Not every street has to have a specific name as long as you create a believable flavor for the city. For example, the world Harry Dresden inhabits "feels" like Chicago. Butcher seems to have picked just a few key ingredients of Chicago life: bars, extremely cold winters, towering buildings downtown, and has expanded on those aspects of Dresden's Chicago (that's the key, btw. It's Dresden's Chicago, not Chicago, Illinois).


You will need to do some research to make it accurate enough to be enjoyable, but you don't have to look up everything to the point of geographically mapping out your plot with a road map of new York. Although if you did it well, you would definitely earn some writer's respect.

You having been to New York will help, but I would recommend seeing if you know anyone who lives there. Ask them about details regarding what you want to know, and anything else they feel like sharing. Never know when a brainstorm will pop up! The absolute best tool you have in getting information is asking other people, because they are your audience. Or your prospective audience, anyway.

I went to New Orleans, last summer, as part of a Lutheran teen convention. While I was there, I took a tour of one of their old cemeteries (they bury their dead in tombs above ground as opposed to below). I learned more about New Orleans in that tour than I would have gotten out of  reading an Encyclopedia article. For instance, a common misconception is that the people of New Orleans use tombs is because the ground is too wet, and that graves would flood. In actuality, they sue that method because it is very efficient. In one tomb, there were at least 2,000 people buried. The heat down there acts like natural cremation, meaning that once one body is finished, you can reuse the tomb. I have to admit, it is more space efficient than our cemeteries in Ohio.
This isn't to say that you have to visit the place to get a good idea about what its like, but it does show that an excellent way of getting enough information about a place to write with comes from talking to people who have experienced it.

Offline Starbeam

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2010, 11:24:14 PM »
It also helps being able to look things up online, check out Google maps, and so forth.  One thing to be careful of is that you make sure what you say is right.  I read a book set in Vegas that said the neon cowboy had been demolished with the Frontier hotel, when it was never attached to that hotel and is still up in the covered walkway thing with the LED roof.
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