Some Fantasy Standards

[Kid Longshot]

I'm looking for info about tradtional vampires, (i.e. non-Buffy/Dresden) as well as shamans.

What I have a grasp on so far is that vampires universally crave blood, have a pigment thing going on, and have some measure of immortality.

For shamans, I get that they are a medicine man type thing for Native American tribes, as well as a position of some authority in a village. I also base most of my stuff for them on the fact that in one way or another, they deal with the spirits of the dead.

What do y'all have for me?

[Darwinist]

Well, I have it on good authority that if you take a perfectly good two by four, whittle down one end into a pointy tip, and then proceed stabbing said vampire in the chest with it... you will either A) piss him off greatly or B) kill it.

What sort of information are you looking for sir? Mating habits... favorite football teams... average life span, number of baseball cards they own? I, for one, know that Shaman are particularly susceptible to STDs. You'd think it would be the Vampires, but no.... its the shaman. They're a horny bunch.

Heh, all kidding aside man, you gotta give a little more for us to go on here. What are you trying to understand about them that wikipedia can't offer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampires
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman

Or any general search on the intarwebs.

[Kid Longshot]

Well, okay, sorry my question was too vague.

Generally, I'm looking for any abilities they generally have, y'know, or susceptibilities, I need those too. Maybe I should rephrase the question.

What kinds of abilities or weaknesses have you seen that you liked about vamps or shamans? What really hit your cool-o-meter on a high setting? Is it just a vampire's super strength or a shaman's uncanny healing abilities? You guys are Butcher fans, too, so what do you like to see?

[Darwinist]

Sorry if that came out rude, it wasn't intended that way. Long day, sarcasm and humor go a long way verbally compared to in prose.

I'm not big into the Shaman side of things. To be honest, I always found the lore to be boring. Nothing I've read or seen on television has been able to make it exciting, fresh, or interesting to me. It's usually "you pissed off the medicine man" and then the big scary indian looking dude does something yawn inducingly boring to you... like shrink your head or something. I guess its the Indian lore side of things that I just can't take seriously.

Vampires are the same way for me. When I think Vampire, I think of bram stokers... or some old guy with greasy hair in a tight form fitting tux. That's why the Dresden books are so refreshing, they don't rely on that crap. There's something unique and fresh about the genre as a whole. They seem like every day people with every day supernatural problems. You meet a vampire and you don't instantly leap to thoughts of what that monster could do to you, you see them as ordinary people. That's what works for me. Something I can relate to.

As for abilities, can't speak for Shammies, but the super strength in vamp's has always intrigued me. It's a side to them that is rarely ever mentioned. You usually see a vamp and they're this stringy supermodel thin geezer. The tip is to take the genre, tip it on its head and see what new you can bring to it. Which is what you appear to be doing by polling our interest, I suppose.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Well, I have it on good authority that if you take a perfectly good two by four, whittle down one end into a pointy tip, and then proceed stabbing said vampire in the chest with it... you will either A) piss him off greatly or B) kill it.

It is worth noting that this also works reasonably well on normal humans, and therefore isn't that good of a distinguishing method.

And if you try it on a being that's not vulnerable to this approach, be prepared for it to be peeved with you ruining its shirt.

[belial.1980]

Shamans are way cool IMO. Shamanism exists in one form or another in just about every corner of the world, from Australia to Siberia. And the interesting thing is that these different cultures share many common themes in their beliefs. Shamanism is varied in all its different forms but there are a few things that they tend to have in common:

In most cultures shamans are considered gifted. They're go betweens for the living and the dead and often interact with nature spirits/gods/spirit animals/relative divine powers. They're generally considered healers and are often called upon to drive away evil entities that make members of their community ill. This can involve the use of magic or various exorcism-type riturals. Also the shaman might be called upon to journey to the land of the dead to bring the soul/spirit of the departed back into the land of the living.

Often times the shaman must undergoes a type of transformation to come into their powers. This usually involves some kind of near death experience. I read about one culture where a shaman is visited by the spirits of his/her ancestors and "rebuilt" in a sense by having crystals placed in their bones and given magic powers.

I did a fair amount of reading on Shamans last summer though most of the specifics have escaped me. However I do recall that I found the shamanistic tradition of Siberian peoples (specifically the Ket) and some of the Alaskan tribes especially fascinating.

I'd recommend reading a book on a world study of Shamanism to give you some ideas. Since it's a very elemental belief system it leaves a lot of room for creative liscence as an author.

[Aludra]

I tend to like the vampire books that stray from the traditional vampire traits, giving new horror stories from which the vampire myth could have erupted.  For example, in my second-cousin's book, The Broken Thread, Dracula's garlic allergy is explained humorously as an exponential increase to allergies one had when alive.  The main character of The Broken Thread is a vampire who is deathly allergic to peanuts and peanut products.

I like when vampires stray from the normal neck-bite draining and do some chomping.  And when they can do things humans think they can't, like eat food, make jokes, or walk in sunlight. 

I also like vampires who can shapeshift into more than just bats, and just generally refuse to fit in to the Stoker's Dracula category while remaining extremely horrific.  Like it would be cool if the main character found out that thier creepy uncle is actually a vampire who can change his appearance and has been stalking them for the last 20 years.  That'd be hilarious and very chilling at the same time.

I like shamans that fit into the native american tradition of the term like Pokey from Coyote Blue.

[jtaylor]

Shamanism and shamans are almost too generic to be used as a single identifier, as there are several different practices and traditions in the real world that fall under that description, and there are also several different treatments of it in fiction already.

When you say "Shaman", the most common meaning is from Native Americans, but there are several Shamans from Mongolian descent, and witchcraft or Wicca can be described as European shamanism.

Some article on Mongol Shamans:
http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Magic.htm
http://homelands.org/worlds/shaman.html

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

When you say "Shaman", the most common meaning is from Native Americans, but there are several Shamans from Mongolian descent, and witchcraft or Wicca can be described as European shamanism.

There are actually many Native American cultures; please to be doing the research with a reasonable degree of respect and specificity as to which one you mean.

[jtaylor]

There are actually many Native American cultures; please to be doing the research with a reasonable degree of respect and specificity as to which one you mean.

Sorry, that was implied, I should have been more specific. I was just being broad because I think that is the most common general grouping of Shamanic traditions. I didn't mean any disrespect, I was just being brief.


I am most familiar with the practices of the Navajo people, as I did some reasearh after reading Tony Hillerman and then again later when I was looking for a spirtual path after I found Christianity didn't work for me.

The wikipedia article is pretty good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_people#Healing_and_spiritual_practices

[Darwinist]

If done right, Shaman might be a good way to go. As I listed above, I am blissfully ignorant of the practice and found any reference to it thus far bland and uninspiring. If you can drum up something new and exciting about it, then its definitely a good direction to go. People respond best to what is unexpected, new or different. So long as it doesn't turn into Poltergeist or a Tauren with pigtails named "Roflstomp", then you're good to go sir.

[Aludra]

Tauren with pigtails named "Roflstomp"

I think I know that guy

[The Corvidian]

First off, the whole sunlight thing was created by FW Murnau for his rip-off of Dracula.
Crosses are also solar symbols, and some authors throw in the idea that Crosses are psychosimatic.
In legend, garlic is a symbol of life, but you could throw in the fact that garlic is a natural antibiotic.

I see shamans as a weird combination of a priest, a psychic, and a thaumaturge(wizard).

[Kristine]

You could combine the two like SUSAN PETREY's short story collection Gifts of Blood -her race of vampires are called the Varkela, peace-loving healers who exchange medical care for small amounts of blood called the blood-price. Set on the wild steppes of Tsarist Russia, the healers work amongst the diverse groups of people inhabiting the land, the Cossacks, the Turks and the Tartars.

Tragically the author died accidentally mixing sleeping pills with alcohol but the race is very real seeming and 'touchable' - they make mistakes and have stupid bad habits.  Great stories.

Crosses are also solar symbols, and some authors throw in the idea that Crosses are psychosimatic.
In legend, garlic is a symbol of life, but you could throw in the fact that garlic is a natural antibiotic.

I guess the things I like best about the traditional fantasy/horror archetypes is when they have a somewhat believable explanation.  When I am in the Dresden books and demons are 'facts' having Thomas tied to one that makes him a type of vampire, is believable and after that it is the characterization not the vampire shtick that makes him interesting.

Any character who does things without a believable motive just because they are 'born that way' - doesn't fly for me, unless you are trying to create a race of beings to be straw bad guys for the main characters to mow down (ie Zombie movies, orcs from LoTR...etc)

I liked some of the explanations from Those Who Hunt the Night when it comes to vampires - that vampires have an incredibly persuasive psychic perception domination ability that allows them to seem to move faster, and change form, and be unbelievably beautiful, but only when the vampire is well fed - like an illusion version of the reds in Dresden.

Some ideas I'm waiting for someone to develop with vampires:
1. vampire hunters who infect themselves with Argyria which causes silver to collect in the hair follicles and turn the skin blue or grey  -would also make them dangerous to bite if the silver allergy was in play. - http://www.rotten.com/library/medicine/quackery/argyria/

While Argyria has no real side effects aside from a slight itching, the condition is irreversible since silver becomes trapped in the deepest layers of skin

2. Vampire Saliva is found to have medical properties... - http://www.physorg.com/news170661506.html -

"The component of the saliva of this tick... could be the cure for cancer," she told AFP.  She said she stumbled on the properties of the protein, called Factor X active, while testing the anti-coagulant properties of the tick's saliva -- the way it stops blood thickening and clotting so the tick can keep gorging itself on its host.

The protein shares some characteristics with a common anti-coagulant called TFPI (Tissue Factor Pathway Inhibitor), specifically a Kunitz-type inhibitor which also has been shown to interfere with cell growth.  A theory that the protein might have an effect on cancerous cells led to laboratory tests on cell cultures -- which exceeded all expectations.

As far as Shamen are concerned - I don't know why no one (as far as I have seen) makes them as real as Butcher or Rowling can make wizards.  Why can't they be ER doctors, veterinarians or paramedics?

I don't mind if you postulate a spiritual world but make everything have certain sets of rules.  In Tim Powers, On Stranger Tides magic always had a smell that accompanied it and magic battles had a mage forcing a perception onto someone else mind - something that if the attacked person had a concussion and was disoriented, made it virtually impossible for that person to be attacked because they couldn't hold the image in their mind.

Things like that can make or break a story for the reader, as long as the characters are 3 dimensional.

[Darwinist]

Well, Injun Joe is supposed to be part Shaman, right? that was part of why he could swap around between various animal forms. I dunno, I liked Joe even before that scene because he had this grandfatherly approach and seemed very real. The fight scene just made him flat out cool in my books. But I just can't imagine a whole story being told around him. There just isn't enough there to sustain interest, but leave it to Butcher to prove me wrong once again...

I guess I'm in the minority... I enjoy sci fi so long as it doesn't stumble into geek speak and nerdgasms. Make it weird, make it cool, and I'll buy it. That's my approach.