I have a problem--I don't have a problem

[belial.1980]

I've heard a lot of people say that essentially a story should be about the protagonist overcoming a problem. In bare bones form a story should involve a character being presented with a problem, struggling to overcome it then either succeeding or failing after the climax.

I've been struggling with the plot of my novel for some time. I think one of the major reasons I'm having troubles is because I haven't been able to construct a single unified problem to present to my MC. So far it seems more like I've been throwing minor problem after minor problem at him, like the ape in Donkey Kong rolling barrels at Mario. The issue is that he doesn't have a clear set goal.

I'm writing is an origin story. The MC is unestablished and he learns about his world at the same rate as the audience. On top of that he's bumbling, naive, and helpless--not much of a hero. He has a strong spirit and struggles with the fact that he is helpless and powerless a lot of the time. He wants to do more but he's inexperienced and lives in a world that's not cut and dry. This results in actions that end up ineffective or antiheroic at best.

But then a thought occured to me: can the quest to become a hero suffice? How about I establish the fact that from an early age he wants to become a hero. His major struggle will boil down to performing a single heroic deed.

Does this seem viable? Thanks in advance for any thoughts and suggestions!

[LizW65]

This sounds like a workable idea to me.  I may be wrong, but it sounds as though you are writing a character-driven, as opposed to plot-driven, story, which is perfectly acceptable.  Your protagonist's journey from bumbling naivete to maturity and strength is enough quest in itself to drive a storyline.

[Gruud]

I'm writing is an origin story. The MC is unestablished and he learns about his world at the same rate as the audience. On top of that he's bumbling, naive, and helpless--not much of a hero. He has a strong spirit and struggles with the fact that he is helpless and powerless a lot of the time. He wants to do more but he's inexperienced and lives in a world that's not cut and dry. This results in actions that end up ineffective or antiheroic at best.

Sounds like a qualifying problem to me. 

Seems to me like you will need to do a lot of inner voice type stuff, as he struggles through his shortcomings, etc. As was said, a character driven story.

Then perhaps you could use several of these minor problems as an inner growth vehicle for him ... with a chance to overcome more than just the material obstacle that confronts him.

Although to become a hero, there will have to be a few major problems as well. Perhaps those could be linked to some extreme physical or mental problem that he has, such that as he moves forward he also walks the path toward overcoming that.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I've heard a lot of people say that essentially a story should be about the protagonist overcoming a problem. In bare bones form a story should involve a character being presented with a problem, struggling to overcome it then either succeeding or failing after the climax.

This is one of these pieces of advice that, while true, is so vague as to be of really limited use.

So far it seems more like I've been throwing minor problem after minor problem at him, like the ape in Donkey Kong rolling barrels at Mario. The issue is that he doesn't have a clear set goal.
I'm writing is an origin story. The MC is unestablished and he learns about his world at the same rate as the audience. On top of that he's bumbling, naive, and helpless--not much of a hero. He has a strong spirit and struggles with the fact that he is helpless and powerless a lot of the time. He wants to do more but he's inexperienced and lives in a world that's not cut and dry. This results in actions that end up ineffective or antiheroic at best.
But then a thought occured to me: can the quest to become a hero suffice? How about I establish the fact that from an early age he wants to become a hero. His major struggle will boil down to performing a single heroic deed.
Does this seem viable? Thanks in advance for any thoughts and suggestions!

You have, I think, defined his problem fairly clearly here.  His overall problem is growing up.

A cohesive arc, clearly learning things from the challenges along the way, and fitting them together into some form of structure where we see how he grows, would work to solve that issue.  Having the smaller problems be part of some larger issue - a plot issue perhaps, but just a personal development issue would also do - will solve that.

A climactic heroic deed is one way of getting the resolution you want, but a climactic realisation - possibly even the realisation after taking care of another of the ongoing issues that hey, he's competent, he's up to this, he's not a kid any more - could also be made to work.  It would take somewhat sharper writing than a big pyrotechnic climax, but I think you might get a better book for it.

[meg_evonne]

I agree.   And even though it is character driven, I have learned the joy and delight in outlining.  Primarily because I've done the head work and don't end up at impasses AND because it speeds up the actual writing time!  Rather than realizing that clues were 'too conveniently' discovered and thenhaving to go back and add in a step process so the new power is logical and not one of those 'I'm the author needing to write my character out of this corner -- so kapow! You have to consciously avoid providing convenient new powers to solve the problem situations. 

Remember in this process--that your main character has to make the reader CARE about them from the first pages.  The character has to have an innate something that let's the reader know that s/he has the ability to obtain these powers or a strong motivating factor which will make the character change. 

Eh, didn't say that right at all.  Someone want to reword that last paragraph to better explain it?  It came from a writer's podcast with two sci fi writers that was excellent, but I can't remember what the podcast series was named?  It was posted here more than a couple times.  Good stuff in those discussions about conflict, about writing sympathetic characters that readers will want to over come their adversity, and developing villains as strongly, with motivations.

Happy writing!

[Starbeam]

Podcast is probably Writing Excuses.

[meg_evonne]

YES  That's the ONE!  Check that out Belial

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Remember in this process--that your main character has to make the reader CARE about them from the first pages.  The character has to have an innate something that let's the reader know that s/he has the ability to obtain these powers or a strong motivating factor which will make the character change. 

Eh, didn't say that right at all.  Someone want to reword that last paragraph to better explain it?

Makes perfect sense to me, except you should lose the apostrophe in "lets"...

I think you have a point that the first pages have to make the reader care and keep reading; I am not at all convinced that the way to do so is necessarily to make it clear and obvious what the character's major arc during the entire book is going to be.

[belial.1980]

Sounds like a qualifying problem to me. 

Although to become a hero, there will have to be a few major problems as well.

Not only does he have big nasties and psychopaths coming after him, he's also a runaway who doesn't know the first thing about taking care of himself. Not to mention he's a virgin. Yeah, he's got problems alright.

This is one of these pieces of advice that, while true, is so vague as to be of really limited use.

You have, I think, defined his problem fairly clearly here.  His overall problem is growing up.

A cohesive arc, clearly learning things from the challenges along the way, and fitting them together into some form of structure where we see how he grows, would work to solve that issue.  Having the smaller problems be part of some larger issue - a plot issue perhaps, but just a personal development issue would also do - will solve that.

A climactic heroic deed is one way of getting the resolution you want, but a climactic realisation - possibly even the realisation after taking care of another of the ongoing issues that hey, he's competent, he's up to this, he's not a kid any more - could also be made to work.  It would take somewhat sharper writing than a big pyrotechnic climax, but I think you might get a better book for it.

I concur. You hit the nail on the head. Some of the best stories are about growing up. Hell, doesn't everybody want to write the next Cather in the Rye? Well that's not my goal, lol, but I think there's something appealing about the loss of innocence/rise to adulthood. Just being able to stand up on that hill with your arms in the air and say, "I did it. This is who I am. I've got a place in the world now."

I agree.   And even though it is character driven, I have learned the joy and delight in outlining.  Primarily because I've done the head work and don't end up at impasses AND because it speeds up the actual writing time!  Rather than realizing that clues were 'too conveniently' discovered and thenhaving to go back and add in a step process so the new power is logical and not one of those 'I'm the author needing to write my character out of this corner -- so kapow! You have to consciously avoid providing convenient new powers to solve the problem situations. 

Remember in this process--that your main character has to make the reader CARE about them from the first pages.  The character has to have an innate something that let's the reader know that s/he has the ability to obtain these powers or a strong motivating factor which will make the character change. 

Eh, didn't say that right at all.  Someone want to reword that last paragraph to better explain it?  It came from a writer's podcast with two sci fi writers that was excellent, but I can't remember what the podcast series was named?  It was posted here more than a couple times.  Good stuff in those discussions about conflict, about writing sympathetic characters that readers will want to over come their adversity, and developing villains as strongly, with motivations.

Happy writing!

I think I answered my own question when I posted this morning. Afterwards I got right to working on my latest outline. Heh. I've been working on the story off and on for a year and half and I've just NOW finished a decent outline. Better late than never. I really know where the story's going. Now I just gotta put in one paper...

It all started off when started some free writing.  Over time I fell in love with the story and the characters. Even when I get frustrated and toss the manusript aside, I write loads of side stories from 3rd person POV to try and flesh out the world and characters. I know it's a terrible time management strategy as far as deadlines go, but it's kept me busy writing and it's helped me develop the "palette" I'm using to paint this fictional world.

Funny you mention the villain because I've recently finished writing one of these side stories about the antogonist. It helped a great deal, I think. Before I had a vague idea about him as a human monster, but now I realize that he once felt pain, pity, and love just anybody else. I'd like to think that he's interesting and even a little sympathetic. He's not just a villain of the week--he's MC's true nemesis. (MC realizes that if the dice had fallen differently their situations could be reversed.) If i can make this into a continuing series, he'll be around for awhile.

I'll definitely check out that podcast. Thanks again ya'll for your insight! 

EDIT: I'm exhausted right now, so please forgive any attrocious grammar or spelling errrors. <--(Except that one)

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Not only does he have big nasties and psychopaths coming after him, he's also a runaway who doesn't know the first thing about taking care of himself.

How long has bhe been a runaway ? It seems like some of that stuff you would learn kind of fast.

I concur. You hit the nail on the head. Some of the best stories are about growing up. Hell, doesn't everybody want to write the next Cather in the Rye?

Ye gods and little fishes, no. 

I think there's something appealing about the loss of innocence/rise to adulthood. Just being able to stand up on that hill with your arms in the air and say, "I did it. This is who I am. I've got a place in the world now."

Yep; 'tis a story pattern that appeals at a very deep level, which is why it works in so many incarnations.

Afterwards I got right to working on my latest outline. Heh. I've been working on the story off and on for a year and half and I've just NOW finished a decent outline. Better late than never.

Hmph.  Day before yesterday I modified the outline for the current active WiP again, because I relaised two chapters needed swapping about, and I am not sure whose viewpoint one of the two subsequent scenes is going to be from.  I've been working on this one for thirteen years, off and on (which would be depressing if I had not started and finished several other more sensibly-scaled novels in the mean time),  it's close on half a million words in total and maybe 20,000 from being finished; I suspect the point at which I get the outline actually right and accurate will be sometime within the twenty minutes after I finish the actual story.

[Mickey Finn]

"can the quest to become a hero suffice?"

That's actually the basis of one of Cambell's story arcs. It's the basis for Star Wars ep4.

Just don't use "Unbreakable" for an example.

[belial.1980]

I think that I had that concept in mind all along but just didn't articulate it till I asked myself the question, "What is the protagonist trying to accomplish?" I'm glad for everyone's reassuring imput.

And I'd definitely recommend Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces It's not extactly light reading, but it's fascinating. It's interesting to see how all these archetypes exist today, Star Wars being a prime example.

[Lanodantheon]

The way I've always seen  and been taught about problems is like this:

A classically structured story is about a protagonist whose life begins in balance until his life is thrown out of balance and to regain balance in his life he must achieve his goal. The goal may have been there from minute one, but the goal of your character is to regain balance in his life.


You're writing an origin story? Look at it this way, Spiderman is really a romantic comedy. Peter Parker's goal from minute one is Mary Jane Watson, he wants her to notice him and he wants to be her S.O..

His life at the beginning of his story isn't perfect(He lives with his Aunt and is a total dork).  The obstacle or problem that stands between Peter and his goal is the fact he is an awkward teenage dork with no social skills, standing or anything. He wants to impress MJ, but he doesn't know how or do it better than the other men in her life.


...until the day Peter's life is thrown out of balance when he gets bit by a spider and gets powers. As the story continues Peter's life gets more complicated the closer he gets to his goal.

THrow in some plot twist and BBEGs that are nothing more than higher obstacles and you have the classic story structure. our Origin story can be the same.

Answer 3 questions:
1)What is your main character's goal?
2) How is he/she going to achieve it?
3) What stands in the way of that goal?

Hope that helps.


BTW: I recommend Robert McKee's Story for all your writing needs.

[belial.1980]

Answer 3 questions:
1)What is your main character's goal?
2) How is he/she going to achieve it?
3) What stands in the way of that goal?

Hope that helps.


BTW: I recommend Robert McKee's Story for all your writing needs.

1) He wants to become a hero. When he's six years old he writes an essay about how he wishes he had superpowers so he can save lives, stop bad guys from hurting people and most of all, make his brother's cancer go away. (Wishful thinking in a harsh world. His brother dies and there's nothing anybody can do about it.)

2) When he's older he learns that he can acheive things that normal people can't. He wants to use these abilities to the benefit of others.

3) Lots of things. To name a few: his personal fears and frailties; a realization that his world's even darker and harsher than he could imagine; protagonists that want to kill him; the fact that he's just coming into his power and that this power can easily destroy him. Maybe worst of all--puberty. We all know how much that sucks. 


I think your questions further reinforce the structure I've finally started to apply to the chaotic mess I've had on my plate for so long. You insight's been very helpful. Thank you!

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The way I've always seen  and been taught about problems is like this:
A classically structured story is about a protagonist whose life begins in balance until his life is thrown out of balance and to regain balance in his life he must achieve his goal. The goal may have been there from minute one, but the goal of your character is to regain balance in his life.

Answer 3 questions:
1)What is your main character's goal?
2) How is he/she going to achieve it?
3) What stands in the way of that goal?

This is a great way to strip down a story so far that what it tells you is simplistic; and you can either write a completely predictable simplistic story - which is not to say it won't be commercial, just that I don't find that an interesting challenge because it's been done so many times - or you can try going a little bit further and doing something different and interesting which if it succeeds will be new and interesting and most likely a better book.

I've always found stories where the heroes knew what their goal actually was and proceeded towards it in an organsied and linear fashion to be a) unrealistic and b) boring as hell.  It's a level on which I would far rather have surprises, reversals, people learning more and therefore realising that their goals should be something more than they think they are.

BTW: I recommend Robert McKee's Story for all your writing needs.

I recommend watching the movie Adaptation to illustrate the pitfalls of taking McKee's advice without a serious pinch of salt.