The Question of Setting

[daylightdreamer]

I apologize if there's already a thread like this on here. I looked for one and didn't see one, but I suck at looking. >>;

Basically, my question is this: You've got an awesome idea for a story! Now how the heck do you figure out where to put it? What things do you need to take into consideration when trying to pick a setting for a story you'd actually like to see published?

Personally, I'm working on my novel and it sort of grew out of something less serious, originally, that was a for fun thing set around the area I'm currently attending College in, which would be one of the suburbs between Milwaukee and Chicago. I was planning on the majority of the story taking place in these suburbs, and then in Chicago itself, with one trip to Milwaukee as well.

Here's the issue, though. Now that I'm looking to make this something serious and potentially try to publish this, Chicago is sort of Jim's turf, which I never even really thought about before. Jim's teacher told him not to set his story in Kansas City because it was too close to LKH's turf. So he picked Chicago.

By that logic, should I try to set up camp elsewhere rather than on already claimed turf? Or is it okay as long as the stories are different enough? What do you guys think. Is it okay for stories to have setting overlap in a similar genre as long as they are considerably different spins on the genre? If not, what will Urban Fantasy do when all the major Urban areas are claimed, so to speak?

I figured I'd pose this question here to see if anyone else has a similar issue while I decide if I should tweak my story and move it to the Twin Cities, closer to where I was born, or not. I don't think anyone's claimed that yet.

[seekmore]

Is your work similar to JB's?

Does it fit into the "supernatural detective" genre?

[daylightdreamer]

Is your work similar to JB's?

Well, they're both Urban Fantasies, so yes, in that respect they are. I'm sure he's also influenced a few other things in the story, just because his work is floating around in my subconscious, but I'd like to think they're different beasts.

Does it fit into the "supernatural detective" genre?

This one's harder, because I guess it depends on how we're categorizing "supernatural detective." The story revolves around vampires, not Wizards and company like the Dresden Files, and the main character isn't a cop, PI, detective, etc. by any sort of professional (or even unprofessional) means. He's more of a dilettante and politician and he doesn't get hired to investigate things or whatever. He's exiled from his home on a false charge because of political things and he's working against the main antagonist to stop his power play and get back home, but figuring out how to stop him involves some investigating, so there's that.

[Starbeam]

I don't think it would matter too terribly much.  I can think of a couple different series set in Seattle off the top of my head, though one is more Urban Fantasy and one more Paranormal Romance.  But both have ghosts, vampires, monsters, etc.  And I think there's a third series, but I can't get my mind working clearly.  And a couple different Urban Fantasies set in Atlanta, Georgia, as well.  Big difference with those is how magic is dealt with in each.  Another option is to go the route that DC comics and authors like Stephen King went, and make up a city, though based on a real place.  Plus, just cause it's Urban fantasy doesn't mean it has to be set in a major city.  Basically just means it takes place in more modern times, least from a lot of the stuff I've read.

[seekmore]

This one's harder, because I guess it depends on how we're categorizing "supernatural detective." The story revolves around vampires, not Wizards and company like the Dresden Files, and the main character isn't a cop, PI, detective, etc. by any sort of professional (or even unprofessional) means. He's more of a dilettante and politician and he doesn't get hired to investigate things or whatever. He's exiled from his home on a false charge because of political things and he's working against the main antagonist to stop his power play and get back home, but figuring out how to stop him involves some investigating, so there's that.

Hm...ok...

WHen reading it, do you thin "Oh, hey, I recognize this place from the Dresden Files?"

I'm just not sure how to judge, exactly.

I've read numerous stories of similar genres set in New York, and they've each had they're own distinct feel to them. Yeah, there were similarities, but it is mostly influenced by how you portray things and how your characters experience and interact with your setting.

I think a key difference in the comparisons(my impression of) your work and Jim butcher's work and LKH and Jim Butcher's work is that in the latter, the works are similar in many ways, and that is why he was counciled to change the setting: in order to not appear too derivative before establishing himself as an author.

That's just my take on it, though.

[Cooper]

I apologize if there's already a thread like this on here. I looked for one and didn't see one, but I suck at looking. >>;

Basically, my question is this: You've got an awesome idea for a story! Now how the heck do you figure out where to put it? What things do you need to take into consideration when trying to pick a setting for a story you'd actually like to see published?

Personally, I'm working on my novel and it sort of grew out of something less serious, originally, that was a for fun thing set around the area I'm currently attending College in, which would be one of the suburbs between Milwaukee and Chicago. I was planning on the majority of the story taking place in these suburbs, and then in Chicago itself, with one trip to Milwaukee as well.

Here's the issue, though. Now that I'm looking to make this something serious and potentially try to publish this, Chicago is sort of Jim's turf, which I never even really thought about before. Jim's teacher told him not to set his story in Kansas City because it was too close to LKH's turf. So he picked Chicago.

By that logic, should I try to set up camp elsewhere rather than on already claimed turf? Or is it okay as long as the stories are different enough? What do you guys think. Is it okay for stories to have setting overlap in a similar genre as long as they are considerably different spins on the genre? If not, what will Urban Fantasy do when all the major Urban areas are claimed, so to speak?

I figured I'd pose this question here to see if anyone else has a similar issue while I decide if I should tweak my story and move it to the Twin Cities, closer to where I was born, or not. I don't think anyone's claimed that yet.

I ran into the same problem about four months ago when I came up with a new novel idea concerning where to put it.  One of the things I learned about writing fiction is write what you know, so I applied it in all three areas and let my imagination do the work.  For my Nano novel (click on my signature link to read what I'm talking about), I wanted to set it in a mountain tourist community with a ski resort and ample distance from Area 51 when my MCs get sent there.  With that I chose Big Bear Lake, CA because (1) it has been my hometown since I was five and (2) I know how the city works in panic during the Old Fires of 2005.  Everything else for setting I have to make up and create on the whim.

I don't think there is a problem using a setting another author used.  You just have to put the feelings of the place differently and in your own words.

[meg_evonne]

Hm...ok..  WHen reading it, do you thin "Oh, hey, I recognize this place from the Dresden Files?"  I'm just not sure how to judge, exactly.  I've read numerous stories of similar genres set in New York, and they've each had they're own distinct feel to them. Yeah, there were similarities, but it is mostly influenced by how you portray things and how your characters experience and interact with your setting.

I think a key difference in the comparisons(my impression of) your work and Jim butcher's work and LKH and Jim Butcher's work is that in the latter, the works are similar in many ways, and that is why he was counciled to change the setting: in order to not appear too derivative before establishing himself as an author.

That's just my take on it, though.

I am going to go along with Seekmore's take.  I agree on everything above.  The only twist you might consider is below:

Ultimately, it isn't what you think or what we think-- it's what the agents and publishing houses think.  If you intend to shop the manuscript eventually, I seriously doubt that Roc or jennifer jackson would consider it since they represent Jim--unless your take is unique and extremely interesting to them and your voice is amazingly different from Jim's.   IF YOU DON"T INTEND TO SHOP IT, then it doesn't matter.   

If you want to see the result of this from the other end of the process, read JD's 'Author in Progress' post about his similar to Halo world.  Great learning experience and he knew that he was writing it for a learning experience.  I think you can get JD's read on his angst over the decision after he was finished. I felt his pain personally, with experience as well. I'd PM JD if you have questions. 

I wish you well, whatever you decide.  I can assure you though that research on line can really give you a strong, intimate feel for other locations.  You also have access to lots of JB fans in other locations who can help you with details, i suspect. 

Bottomline, I'm a business person.  Figure out the hours you are going to spend on this and then balance it against any decrease in your agent/houses in comparison.    Maybe that will help?

[daylightdreamer]

Thanks for all the comments guys. They're helpful.

Ultimately, it isn't what you think or what we think-- it's what the agents and publishing houses think.  If you intend to shop the manuscript eventually, I seriously doubt that Roc or jennifer jackson would consider it since they represent Jim--unless your take is unique and extremely interesting to them and your voice is amazingly different from Jim's.   IF YOU DON"T INTEND TO SHOP IT, then it doesn't matter.   

See, that's the issue, though. I would like to try to shop this, depending on if it turns out the way I'd like it to, which is the only reason I'm even considering the setting change. I just really don't have a lot of experience with all the facets of this. I'm a Creative Writing minor, but the only professor at my college who had any experience with publishing commercially left. The new head of the department who taught most of my classes thinks that even wanting to write commercial fiction makes you a sell out and a bad writer and told me as much. You can imagine how please I was with that. 

I guess I just feel kind of adrift and not sure what to do about this. I don't even know where to begin trying to put myself in the mindset of an agent or publisher. I don't think my stuff is that similar to Jim's, but at the same time, it might be similar enough for it to be an issue and I just don't see it since it's my story. I guess maybe I should move it just to be better safe than sorry?

[LizW65]

The new head of the department who taught most of my classes thinks that even wanting to write commercial fiction makes you a sell out and a bad writer and told me as much. You can imagine how please I was with that. 

How much do you wanna bet this guy tried, and failed, to write commercial fiction?  That comment has "sour grapes" all over it.   From your description, I think your story sounds sufficiently different from Jim's to make it OK.  PN Elrod has a vampire detective series set in Chicago, but the Depression-era setting makes it quite different from most urban fantasy currently on the market.  My advice is, don't get too hung up on stuff like this before you actually start writing; it'll only hold you back.  You can always go back and change it later if you think it necessary.

[Starbeam]

How much do you wanna bet this guy tried, and failed, to write commercial fiction?  That comment has "sour grapes" all over it.  

Or is one of the types who believe the only "real" stuff out there is anything considered literature.  I had a couple professors like this in college.  One spent a semester in England and came back more willing to accept genre fiction.  Did so with her online class she taught while she was over there, too.  Dunno what changed her mind.  The other one asked me if I could change the setting of a very swords and sorcery type fantasy to a more modern setting.  She's published one book, a retelling of Ethan From from the wife's POV.

Something I discovered, that would've been helpful before college instead of learning afterward, is that it would've been a good idea to look up the CW professors to see what they've done and how open they'd be to genre.  Oh well.  I wrote something like 12 chapters in the one class, even though the prof graded only the first 25 pages, and gave me a C.

You can always go back and change it later if you think it necessary.

Exactly.

[meg_evonne]

The new head of the department who taught most of my classes thinks that even wanting to write commercial fiction makes you a sell out and a bad writer and told me as much. You can imagine how please I was with that.   

GRRRRR.  Still--you can learn something from anyone.  Wring him/her dry of what you can and then discard. your purpose is to improve your craft. Remember, you may one day have to work with an editor that you can't stand.  It's good practice.  Also, you'd be amazed what even this idiot's recommendation might mean on your resume/bio--so bump that C to an A next time, get the creeps notice and play them for everything you can get out of them.

I'm not normally so mercenary, but time is prescious---don't lose it because you don't like the instructor.  And frankly, this jerk deserves the mercenany treatment...

[Starbeam]

Another way to go is what I did for one of my classes.  I wrote a story that had a fantasy element; the main char kept seeing a dragon and talking to it, but I never made it clear if the dragon was actually real or if it was all in her head.  Also the style of magical realism.  It sorta makes you get creative with how you can change things around with perspective to come across one way or another, depending on who's reading.  And if it's anything urban fantasy, small changes to make things more normal can be later changed back.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

My vote would be "write where you know"; there are plenty of people out there for whom the bits of getting Chicago wrong that Jim not being a Chicago native has put in the books are things to grumble about, and on the contrary, it's really cool when someone writes about a setting you know well yourself and gets it right.  (My own favourite example of this is Ian McDonald's King of Morning Queen of Day, the last section of which does early-90s Dublin at the time I was an undergrad there and has one big action scene that would have been visible from my front door, and it;s absolutely perfect.)

If you must set something somewhere you don't know, either be vague or get a local test-reader to check the geography.

[LizW65]

My vote would be "write where you know"; there are plenty of people out there for whom the bits of getting Chicago wrong that Jim not being a Chicago native has put in the books are things to grumble about,

I've encountered people on another discussion group who just can't get past Dresden mentioning that he lives in "midtown" Chicago in the first book, and have denied themselves an entire excellent series because of that one detail.  Makes me want to roll my eyes and say, "Get over yourselves already, people."

And there's always Google Earth, or that old standby, the Road Trip, which you could at least try to write off as a business expense at the end of the year.

[daylightdreamer]

Okay...there are a lot of comments to address, but I'm going to try to address as many as I can.

How much do you wanna bet this guy tried, and failed, to write commercial fiction?  That comment has "sour grapes" all over it.  

He's a poet, first of all, so it's really hard to get a lot of stuff out of him about prose type stuff. We had a novelist as the head of the department when I first went there (part of the reason I went there), but she transferred out before I even got to have a class with her and they brought in this guy. He's just a lit snob, partly, and he's also just...odd. He says that when he reads, he can't visualize what he's reading. It's just words on the page, so he's all about making it look good on the page and making the words sound good next to each other.

From your description, I think your story sounds sufficiently different from Jim's to make it OK.  PN Elrod has a vampire detective series set in Chicago, but the Depression-era setting makes it quite different from most urban fantasy currently on the market.  My advice is, don't get too hung up on stuff like this before you actually start writing; it'll only hold you back.  You can always go back and change it later if you think it necessary.

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm just going to make sure I tread the line carefully. And really, I'm not going to be able to get a lot of good feedback on it until it's written, so yeah. If I have to change it later, so be it.

Or is one of the types who believe the only "real" stuff out there is anything considered literature.  I had a couple professors like this in college. 
...
Something I discovered, that would've been helpful before college instead of learning afterward, is that it would've been a good idea to look up the CW professors to see what they've done and how open they'd be to genre.  Oh well.  I wrote something like 12 chapters in the one class, even though the prof graded only the first 25 pages, and gave me a C.

Yeah, I've really just kind of gotten screwed. One, I was the first child to go to college and I didn't shop around as much as I should have. I settled on this school because I liked the school and the program seemed really legit, but then the professors have since all juggled around and the one good one I had is never around to talk to anymore. I'm trying to set up an email dialogue with him, but it's proving difficult. Oh, if I could turn back time. Sadly, by the time I realized this was probably a poor choice for what I want to do, I had my degree basically done and I don't have the money to spend if I were to transfer. I'll be graduating in one more semester, so yeah. Hindsight is 20-20.

GRRRRR.  Still--you can learn something from anyone.  Wring him/her dry of what you can and then discard. your purpose is to improve your craft. Remember, you may one day have to work with an editor that you can't stand.  It's good practice.  Also, you'd be amazed what even this idiot's recommendation might mean on your resume/bio--so bump that C to an A next time, get the creeps notice and play them for everything you can get out of them.

I'm not normally so mercenary, but time is prescious---don't lose it because you don't like the instructor.  And frankly, this jerk deserves the mercenany treatment...

Yeah, I've done my major project there and I learned a lot from him and the other faculty. I just don't know how much of it is applicable for what I want to do. He does have a lot of interesting advice, it's just not usually topical. I've been trying to treat it like an exercise. Do what he says and while I'm doing it, try to find ways to apply it to what I really want to do. I'm going to try to get some more out of everyone before I graduate, but I'm starting to look elsewhere to improve my craft.

My vote would be "write where you know"; there are plenty of people out there for whom the bits of getting Chicago wrong that Jim not being a Chicago native has put in the books are things to grumble about, and on the contrary, it's really cool when someone writes about a setting you know well yourself and gets it right.

I think I'm going to leave it for now and if nothing else, change it later. I'm not a Chicago native, but I go to college within 40 minutes of there, so I've been down there a lot. I'm actually setting the majority of the story in the suburbs north of Chicago, which is where I live when I'm at school, with a detour up into Milwaukee, and then parts of it in Chicago, too. If I write a sequel (and I'd like to, but I don't want to get ahead of myself) it would probably be mostly in Chicago, but that's then, this is now. I want to be able to get the details right, which is why I want to use the area.

Oh, and about the road trip thing, since I won't be near the school this summer do to poor job market, I won't be able to road trip down there as easily, but I'm planning on trying to get down there at least once so I can check up on any issues that come up in the novel. If nothing else, most of my friends live in that area, so I can always call them and be like "Hey, can you drive over here and tell me what you see?"

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It's really helpful. Sorry for the long post...>>;